The crucifixion of Jesus Christ

[AdMan]

Did you know that the Ionic Greek Ciphered Numeral System...

<nonsensical arguments snipped>

Did you know that numerology is not even remotely close to science, as you have falsely claimed it is?

 

[Astreja]

Did you know that the Ionic Greek Ciphered Numeral System came into use in Greece since the third century BC?

When analyzing the name of someone who lived in Israel and who probably spoke either Hebrew or Aramaic or both, why use the Greek alphabet rather than the Hebrew one? That would be like taking a Scandinavian name and transliterating it into Russian Cyrillic characters before analyzing it.

For the record, I think numerology is complete and utter rubbish. There simply is no inherent meaning in the arrangement of letters in an alphabet, just as the numbers themselves have no innate esoteric meanings. In some cultures, for instance, the number 4 indicates stability; in other cultures, it indicates death.

But if we're going to go down this fairydust-contaminated path of woo-woo, I might as well cut to the chase here.

Astreja Odinsdóttir -> ΑΩ -> The Alpha and the Omega.

So there, nyah. *pffft*

 

[Meadmaker]

...the number 4 indicates stability; in other cultures, it indicates death.

Seems pretty stable to me.

 

[Astreja]

Seems pretty stable to me.

At least till the microbes start having a lease-breaking party.

 

[pakeha]

When analyzing the name of someone who lived in Israel and who probably spoke either Hebrew or Aramaic or both, why use the Greek alphabet rather than the Hebrew one? That would be like taking a Scandinavian name and transliterating it into Russian Cyrillic characters before analyzing it. ...

Actually, O Goddess, the latter would make more sense than the former.
When I investigated the origins of runes, I soon found that the Cyrillic characters included one of the more interesting ones.

Anyway.
Numerology as applied to the bible.
Does this mean we're headed straight to Cabbalism, unless PC applies Greek systems and goes the Gnostic route?
It'll be interesting to see where PC wants to take the thread.

Cabbalism would accomodate that golem origin of Pontius Pilate.
Maybe.

 

[Akuma Tennou]

Cabbalism would accomodate that golem origin of Pontius Pilate.
Maybe.

PC already told the bible or at least the NT was wrong. in his dilemma between jeebus and the grandma he chose the grandma. so yeah, he's already half-jew

 

[PeaceCrusader]

The seven books of the Harry Potter series mention King's Cross station, Tottenham Court Road, the Forest of Dean, Romania, London, Surrey, Nicholas Flamel, Agrippa, Ptolemy and Paracelsus (to name but a few). But that does not mean that the Harry Potter stories are true.

'Every Man For Himself' by Beryl Bainbridge mentions the Titanic, Southampton, Queenstown, Captain Smith, Colonel Gracie, John Jacob Astor, Lady Duff Gordon, Officer Lightoller and the Carpathia (again to name but a few). But the story contained within this book of Morgan, Wallis and Scurra is fiction, even though the backdrop to the story, the sinking of the Titanic, is fact.

Just because the Bible mentions some real people and real places does not mean that the stories contained within it are factual. As I have demonstrated, setting fictional stories against a factual background is a common literary device.

Your 'proof' of the dates of the birth and death of Jesus, even if he existed, are based on the false contention that the Jewish calendar prior to the 4th century was purely lunar. You fail to account for the intercalary month which was inserted as necessary so that Passover remained in spring. No amount of appealing to fig trees or linen cloths is going to change that you are quite simply wrong.

Was the setting of “fictional stories against a factual background ... a common literary device” used during the time of Jesus? Is it found in Josephus writing or in any literature which are contemporary of Jesus?

Yes, during the time of Jesus, the Israelites were using two kinds of calendars: a purely lunar calendar and a lunisolar calendar. 1 Kings 6:1 states: “And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.” The 480th year is lunar years. This commencement of the building of the house of the LORD occurred in 1058 BC. Why second day of the month? Because on the first of the month is Rosh Hodesh or the New Moon Festival.

You only insert an intercalary month in the lunisolar calendar to align the calendar to the seasons of the year, and not to the purely lunar calendar.

Passover was in the purely lunar calendar and not in the lunisolar calendar. When Jesus was crucified, Passover was in the month of August, a summer month. That is why Jesus expected to find fruit in the fig tree, and the young man was just wearing a linen cloth.

 

[gabeygoat]

That is why Jesus expected to find fruit in the fig tree, and the young man was just wearing a linen cloth.

here is a picture of people on passover in April in Israel. Note, they are not only wearing light clothing, with their sleeves rolled up and they are eating outside. It has been pointed out to you before, numerous times, that it's not cold in Israel in April. You choose to ignore this and keep repeating the same nonsense over and over in order to "prove" the lies of Ka Apaz/Ama.

 

[pakeha]

Was the setting of “fictional stories against a factual background ... a common literary device” used during the time of Jesus? Is it found in Josephus writing or in any literature which are contemporary of Jesus? ....

Yes, of course it was, PC.
Do a quick check on novels to see for yourself.

 

[Meadmaker]

Was the setting of “fictional stories against a factual background ... a common literary device” used during the time of Jesus? Is it found in Josephus writing or in any literature which are contemporary of Jesus?

Yes.

A great deal of "history" fits that description.

All of the stories of religion fit that description. Homer, Virgil, the stories of the Buddha, the tales of the Tuatha de Danaan. The Canaanite myths. The legend of Atlantis.

Those are just well known tales. Darned near everything written at that time fits the description, although, like the Bible, the authors of the stories assert that the stories are non-fiction.

Yes, during the time of Jesus, the Israelites were using two kinds of calendars: a purely lunar calendar and a lunisolar calendar. 1 Kings 6:1 states: “And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.” The 480th year is lunar years.

We understand that you believe that, but do you have some source other than divine revelation that might persuade others that you are correct?

As it stands now, it's just unverifiable assertion.

 

[Craig B]

Was the setting of “fictional stories against a factual background ... a common literary device” used during the time of Jesus? Is it found in Josephus writing or in any literature which are contemporary of Jesus? ...

This very question was discussed exhaustively in another quite recent thread. Can any other contributer find it, please? I can't remember what the OP was about. Quite a long list of fiction circulating in Jesus' day was drawn up. I remember contributing Esther to the list. (It is the only work now in the Jewish biblical canon, not represented among the Dead Sea Scrolls; so the Essenes must have rejected it, albeit that it includes genuine historical characters such as Xerxes, king of Persia.)

In fact, the two birth stories in the later Synoptics are so discrepant that at least one of them (by cast iron logical inference) if not both of them (by any standard of reasonableness) must be "a fictional story set against a factual background". The factual background in Matthew is the existence of a wicked king who historically died in 4 BCE; while in Luke it is a census that initiated the Roman occupation, conducted in 6 CE. And of course there was and is indeed such a place as Bethlehem.

 

[Akuma Tennou]

Was the setting of “fictional stories against a factual background ... a common literary device” used during the time of Jesus? Is it found in Josephus writing or in any literature which are contemporary of Jesus?

even if he was not a contemporary of the alleged historical jesus, Lucian^WP of Samosate, who was indeed living in the times where the gospels were written, wrote True History^WP. the book, thought to be the first work of sci-fi ever, describes a lot of historical places and people. described also as a satirical act, lucian mocks "fictional histories" like those of Homer. too bad he was born too soon to read the NT.

 

[Craig B]

even if he was not a contemporary of the alleged historical jesus, Lucian^WP of Samosate, who was indeed living in the times where the gospels were written, wrote True History^WP. the book, thought to be the first work of sci-fi ever, describes a lot of historical places and people. described also as a satirical act, lucian mocks "fictional histories" like those of Homer. too bad he was born too soon to read the NT.

And we have Petronius (c27-66) of whose novel, Satyricon, wiki states

Another literary device Petronius employs in his novel is a collection of specific allusions. The allusions to certain people and events are evidence that the Satyricon was written during Nero's time.

In other words, a factual background.

ETA Lucian in fact refers to the Christians and to Jesus in his "Death of Peregrinus" (c 170 AD) whether he read the gospels or not.

from the moment that they are converted (they) deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.

 

[Astreja]

Was the setting of “fictional stories against a factual background ... a common literary device” used during the time of Jesus?

Yes; in fact, it predates it by hundreds if not thousands of years. For instance, Homer's Iliad and Odyssey both use the Trojan war and real places, intermingling them with mythic elements. It may not have been called a literary device, but it has existed since the first shaman told the first myth to the tribe.

 

[fromdownunder]

PC, have you ever heard of The Epic of Gilgamesh? check out when it was written, what it says and whether you think it is factual.

If you think that fiction is a modern invention, then I have a Bridge over Sydney Harbour for sale, and I will sell it to you reeeaaaalllly cheap.

I really find it difficult to believe that a functional Human Being can go through life getting everything he says remarkably and so consistently wrong. It defies belief.

Norm

 

[rickps]

I have a Bridge over Sydney Harbour for sale, and I will sell it to you reeeaaaalllly cheap.

Ask for $888 and he'll probably buy it.

 

[Akhenaten]

Was the setting of “fictional stories against a factual background ... a common literary device” used during the time of Jesus? Is it found in Josephus writing or in any literature which are contemporary of Jesus? ...

This very question was discussed exhaustively in another quite recent thread. Can any other contributer find it, please? I can't remember what the OP was about. Quite a long list of fiction circulating in Jesus' day was drawn up. I remember contributing Esther to the list. (It is the only work now in the Jewish biblical canon, not represented among the Dead Sea Scrolls; so the Essenes must have rejected it, albeit that it includes genuine historical characters such as Xerxes, king of Persia.)

TTTWND

List a work of fiction coming from Judea, where Christ's ministry was. You can go back a thousand years before Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_of_Scipio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclogues
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab_Urbe_Condita_(book) (quite important example as it is a "history" book which contains legend and myth as truth...sound familar?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyricon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedra_(Seneca)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deipnosophistae

List a work of fiction coming from Judea, where Christ's ministry was. You can go back a thousand years before Christ.

Esther. How it got into the canon, God knows. He's not mentioned in it. The mediaeval Jewish scholar Maimonides considered the Book of Job to be non historical. With good reason I may say. It's a work of fiction composed for ideological purposes.

If there was an extensive literature in much earlier times, unless it was incorporated into the scriptural canon, it failed to survive the attentions of the Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and others. The two exiles, in Babylon and following the Second Jewish War, caused a practically total loss of secular literature, if it existed.

But we have fictional works from Egypt, where ancient texts did survive better. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Sinuhe, for a well known example.

It should also be recalled that Judeans of Jesus' day did their casual reading in Aramaic or Greek, not in Hebrew, which by that time had become a scholarly or liturgical language, and was no longer the vernacular. Paul displays a knowledge of Greek literature. See http://www.padfield.com/acrobat/sermons/saul-of-tarsus.pdf

a) In his sermon to the philosophers at Mars’ Hill, Paul quoted the Greek poet Aratus of Soli, who was from Paul’s own province in Cilicia (c. 270 B.C.), “We are also his offspring” (Acts 17:28).
b) In Titus 1:12, he quotes from Epimenides, a Cretan poet, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
c) Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 15:33 that “evil company corrupts good habits,” was a well-known Greek proverb from a line of poetry in Menander’s comedy, Thais.
d) “J. Rendel Harris claims that he finds allusions in Paul’s Epistles to Pindar, Aristophanes, and other Greek writers. There is no reason in the world why Paul should not have acquaintance with Greek literature, though one need not strain a point to prove it.”

I forgot to add that much of the action in my Egyptian example (from c 1800 BCE), The Tale of Sinuhe, is in fact set in the Syria-Canaan area, and the work contains some themes familiar to readers of other texts originating in that part of the world.

Parallels have been made with the biblical narrative of Joseph. In what is seen as divine providence, the Syro-Canaanite Joseph is taken to Egypt where he becomes part of the ruling elite, acquires a wife and family, before being reunited with his Syro-Canaanite family. In what as seen as divine providence, Sinuhe the Egyptian flees to Syro-Canaan and becomes a member of the ruling elite, acquires a wife and family, before being reunited with his Egyptian family. Parallels have also been drawn with other biblical texts: Sinuhe's frustrated flight from the orbit of god's power (=King) is likened to the Hebrew prophet Jonah's similar attempt, his fight with a mighty challenger, whom he slays with a single blow, is compared to the battle between David and Goliath and his return home likened to the parable of the Prodigal Son.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Sinuhe.

 

[Akhenaten]

If you think that fiction is a modern invention, then I have a Bridge over Sydney Harbour for sale, and I will sell it to you reeeaaaalllly cheap.

Norm

Oi! That's my bridge!

@Akuma Tennou, #266

I thought you were just pulling my leg, Akuma Tennou. I checked the Internet and there is really a Quercus crucifera, a silky oak species. I do not know how it looked like, whether it has “only two branches that form a cross with the trunk” or not.

@ PeaceCrusader #307

Do you know that I own the Sydney Harbour Bridge? I just share to you that you can buy it from me if you have enough money.

Do you know that the approximate elevation of Sydney where the Sydney Harbour Bridge was built is sea level and that is why they need the bridge?

This is where the Sydney Harbour Bridge can be found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Harbour_Bridge

 

[Evolved Wookie]

<Snippity-snip>
Essentially, you're wishing death upon 2/3 of My household -- My mother, My daughter, and 3 of My cats.

Wait. You have 4 1/2 cats? That seems...cruel.

 

[pakeha]

A half-grown cat among them?

TTTWND

Awesome post, O Pharaoh, simply awesome.
And thanks for recalling the panda in the Berlin Zoo Incident.

Did you know that Quercus crucifera is an oak species with only two branches that form a cross with the trunk? Ka Apaz confirmed it, they have no leaves and are only 7ft tall, just enough to pin down on it a 6'8" godly guy

yup, i found a logical confirmation of it in the writings of the saint apostle nostradamus, who is said by ka apaz living in the body of a panda in the berlin zoo. he had a good memory of those trees.