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How can peace in Syria be achieved?

By the way, three day truce.

Cool I guess, better than nothing, but not a substitute for a real peace plan.

Syrian Military Declares Holiday Truce, but Will Respond to Attacks

They will be attacked, in a big and nasty way, and be denounced for breaking their own cease-fire when responding. Three days? No way. Two if they're lucky.

That's a prediction.

No, I amend it. Civilians will be attacked, including children, in whatever numbers, and the gov. will be denounced for blaming "terrorists" and responding when *clearly* they did it themselves, just to screw up their own cease-fire promise and clarify how badly they need to be removed from power, as usual.

It's coming up soon.
 
I had a look, and the Wikipedia page seems to be an okay reference on casualties. Some counts include security personnel. 34,334 is one specific estimate as of Oct. 24, including security personnell, rebel fighters ("civilians,") and civilians (but not foreign fighters). "Syrian martyrs" managed to claim 38,302 dead, NOT including security forces, but including "3,374 military defectors," some of those of course identified as such only after being "just found" dead by rebels (executed for "refusing to kill protesters," usually)
.
Due to the opposition's policy of counting rebel fighters that were not defectors as civilians[22][23][24] a complete number of rebels killed in the conflict, thus far, does not exist.
So if they are defectors, they're listed as rebels? Or as defectors, of the kind listed here that 3,374 of have died? Isn't it suspicious how the rebels aren't letting us get a clear view of their own count of their own dead? All either "defectors" or "civilians," indistinguishable from Sari. And no tally for the foreign fighters killed - is it like 140, or more like 2,700?

(from opposition sources mostly)
Syrian military and police 8,767–10,556 killed[15][25][26]
Shabiha Unknown,[27] 140 conf.[28]
Lebanese Hezbollah & Iranian Basij 590 killed[29][30][31][32][33]

The word protester appears once, in a footnote:
Kelley, Michael (8 March 2012). "Iranian Fighters Are Killing Syrian Troops Who Refuse to Fire On Protesters". Articles.businessinsider.com.

Ah! So that's who's killing all those defectors!

So that page won't help support your claim (and Virus', and TBV's) of 33,000 protesters killed, HB.
 
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Responding to a question about how many protestors have been killed with:

"Syria death toll hits 33,082"

Nope. Try again.

That is not a mistake. Only reporting what the only groups who have bothered to keep count of how many people have been killed in Syria.

The UN and others have put the number of protesters killed at around 3000 - 5000.

At a time before there was a FSA, before there the Syrians started to fight back against the mass killings by the regime, there were a lot of protests, and thousands of innocent Syrians asking for fair treatment were killed by the regime.
 
A serious point made was that today, in this environment where even with huge efforts to shut up dissenting voices getting a complete picture of important issues is easier than ever before in history, it boils down to being on the side of the oppressor or being on the side of the oppressed. Nobody can say these days that they just "didn't know better". That didn't even fly for the Nazi Mitläufer seventy years ago, HoverBoarder.

The same problems that people had with Bush's "axis of evil" comments are the same problems people have with the people that JJ linked to. Blanket blame assertions that ignore any detailed analysis in order to bolster their own personal world views.

As I noted in the CT thread where I reposted JJ's video:

A lot of the reason why the death squads and other CTs on Syria are so popular is because people would rather use the situation to support their own largely antiwestern bias and propaganda views instead of working to seriously see what is going on.

That kind of behavior contributes to the continuation of the conflict by providing support to groups like Iran and Russia who are perpetuating the Syrian crisis to achieve their own foreign policy goals. Allowing them to not have to hold the Syrian regime accountable for their actions. Many people have built their identities on that type of baseless anti-western CT supported mindset, but they are buying their bubble world fantasy lands with the lives of innocent Syrians.

A selfish act to say the least.

I am interested in looking into why the conflict happened in the first place, and how to prevent a similar occurance from happening in the future.
 
One of the later speakers noted how because capitalism was failing, he would support anyone who would oppose America. It was a scary blanket assertion that as long as they opposed America, they were good.
Now we're getting down to what all of this is really all about.

That thinking can be boiled down to 'any evil in fight of the REAL evil is good.'

As long as it is fighting the REAL evil, any innocent people killed in the process are not important.

It is a very similar thinking to the old Mao communist China, the USSR, and the Khmer Rouge. In which tens of millions of people were needlessly killed in pursuit of the 'greater good.'
 
Defend "garbage." Last time you acknowledged anything it was so maybe I am right (the rebels did kill that kid), but I was ignoring everything else. You never explained what's wrong with that case, and until you do, LOSE.

And I'll post it as often as I like until anyone can find anything wrong with it.
That's simply untrue. Any casual reader can see that. You need to address the indicators I provide in the article and show why they aren't. AND I didn't really spell out the basic logic you can't refute that those "regime snipers" didn't bother shooting the FSA-activist guys who within moments were in the same field of fire scooping up the proof of their crime and make their own propaganda snuff films with it. That indicates - doesn't prove but indicates - the snipers and them were on the same team.

There is nothing in the Sari case that shows any indication of guilt by the FSA. Unless you have any information that was not included in your previous links, than that is where the facts lie.

Claiming otherwise, no matter the number of times you repeat it, is dishonest.
 
They will be attacked, in a big and nasty way, and be denounced for breaking their own cease-fire when responding. Three days? No way. Two if they're lucky.

That's a prediction.

No, I amend it. Civilians will be attacked, including children, in whatever numbers, and the gov. will be denounced for blaming "terrorists" and responding when *clearly* they did it themselves, just to screw up their own cease-fire promise and clarify how badly they need to be removed from power, as usual.

It's coming up soon.

The cease fire will not fully last a day, but I expect many groups to observe it through all three days. Despite the recent car bomb in Damascus.

The regime is not going to get very far playing the victim card though. They are BY CHOICE, killing tens of thousands of Syrians in order to retain their totalitarian bloody grip on power that has always been maintained through torture, abductions, killings, and terrorism. No one needs to frame the regime when their own daily actions show their guilt of massive war crime/ human rights abuses.

At any time, they could stop this conflict and work towards a solution. Instead, they are choosing to kill Syrians by the hundreds every day in order to try to terrorize the Syrians into submission.
 
Why have I never seen you post anything about bread line bombings? Especially given how common they have become???

Too busy. Gut instinct, with zero tactical advantage for the gov. and maxinal propaganda value against it, is the rebels' little Islamo-nihilist gremlins would be guilty of these too. It was found to be the case in a famous Bosnian bread queue mortar "shelling" massacre (yep - see here). Guess what - no supporting investigation yet. Guess I'm "ignoring it." Whereas you can copy and past from any number of pre-written articles and hoo-boy isn't that scholarly.

Lose.


Yes. The rebels have more weapons, not less, all the time. Lose.

That is a really sad excuse.

Do you seriosly believe that you are honestly looking into what is happening in Syria by working so hard to ignore 95% of it?
 
WOW, some great comebacks there.
Do you seriosly believe that you are honestly looking into what is happening in Syria by working so hard to ignore 95% of it?
Yes. 5% is hard work. Let me know if you ever even try for 1%.

Sorry. No one can say I didn't try, (well, you can say whatever you like, as you have been) But that's all I have time for. Reattaching words and meaning in a consistent and meaningful way here might be beyond my abilities. And that connection is required for further conversation with me. So enjoy the rest, until I come back to announce how many little kids "the regime" killed before the truce was up.

ETA: Not yet, but my first call is coming true.

Damascus and Daraa: Fox News
A few hours after the truce took effect, a car bomb in a residential area of Damascus, near a housing complex for police, killed 10 people and wounded more than 30, Syrian state media said.
Amateur video posted online showed debris scattered across a large area. Flames shot out of the car's gutted wreckage, as frantic residents tried to evacuate casualties. One rescuer carried a man with blood streaming down his face.
Another rigged car went off near an army checkpoint in the southern city of Deraa, killing three soldiers, said the Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, which compiles reports from a network of activists.

Aleppo: CS Monitor
Rebel forces said the Syrian Army attacked this morning, the first day of the four-day holiday, after rebels made advances in the city last night for the first time in weeks. The government had previously said it would hold to the cease-fire only if the rebels did; some rebel commanders said the same, while others refused to agree to any break in the fighting.

Australian
A separate car bombing in Damascus killed five people and wounded 32, Syrian state television reported.

The Observatory confirmed the attack, adding that children were among the wounded.
...
Jihadist group Al-Nosra Front, which has claimed the majority of deadly car bombings and suicide attacks over the course of the conflict, has categorically rejected any truce.

BBC
A more nuanced response was set out by Brigadier Methqal Husani al-Btaish al-Neemeh, "spokesman of the joint command of military and revolutionary councils in all Syria".

In a YouTube video, sitting at a desk and flanked by fighters, he said the rebels would observe the ceasefire if the government released all prisoners, lifted the siege of Homs, ceased all aerial activity, and did not use the truce to reinforce or resupply.

'Treachery and scheming'
It was a longer way of saying the same as the former kick-boxer, Abu Mufaa: the ceasefire would exist in name only.


Piles of rubbish litter the streets of Aleppo, where the battle for control continues
And even then, despite Brigadier General al-Btaish's impressive title, it is not clear how many rebel fighters he speaks for.

The officer describing himself as the Free Syrian Army's chief of staff, Col Ahmad Hijazi, rejected the idea of a ceasefire altogether: "We did not and will not agree to a ceasefire," he told BBC Arabic on Wednesday.

"The regime is used to [our?] treachery and scheming. It is not to be trusted."
 
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That thinking can be boiled down to 'any evil in fight of the REAL evil is good.'

As long as it is fighting the REAL evil, any innocent people killed in the process are not important.

It is a very similar thinking to the old Mao communist China, the USSR, and the Khmer Rouge. In which tens of millions of people were needlessly killed in pursuit of the 'greater good.'

It's as clear as day, despite the awkward song and dance from the internet stooge squad.
 
The Three Stooges.

And the third one chines in with the final verse, right on cue. Too perfect!

V, TBV, since HB won't answer the question, how many protesters do you think have been killed? He was asked, and answered 33,000 people, making it seem he thought all the dead were protesters. But he says "no one has ever made that claim," so he must have known the figure was for everyone, so therefore he chose deliberately not to answer the question, for just what reason I can't say.

But then why, when I specified a few hundred protesters, did he refer back to the same number and groups, saying I was far off from them in my estimate? Was he really deliberately side-stepping and letting us get confused about his cognitive capabilities, or was he really just totally confused?

More on the cease-fire in a bit...
 
---
Let me again amend my guess for how the soon-to-be-infamous Eid cease-fire will end: After some thought on the first round, I predict the rebel narrative will be "yeah, we said we wouldn't comply, and we attacked. They said they'd retaliate, and this is their revenge. They responded with a new massacre of civilians, including as many children as possible. We control all the evidence, here's a video."

If kids wind up killed, not just injured, in the rebel bombing of the homes of police officers, that's bad PR in and of itself but in light of what's set next, that will be used to help explain why the regime chose the unacceptable route of revenge. Most will believe it.

Now I will go check on that. Expected to be happening now, in the last few hours, or next few hours.

According to a Google News search, no fulfillment of the prophecy yet. But the motive is set. Kids were apparently killed, at a playground. The rebels want us to know this, and they instantly blame the government itself.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/26/world/meast/syria-civil-war/index.html
...Some of the dead were reported to be children.
The blast seemed to mock the truce that the Syrian government and rebels agreed to abide by earlier this week.
...
Rebels said the blast went off near a playground.
...
About 15 minutes after the blast, Syria security forces showed up and shot directly at someone filming the scene, a source who CNN has spoken with before inside Syria recounted. CNN is not naming her to protect her safety.
"The people were mad with grief, with rage," she said.
A small demonstration formed, as Syrians chanted against the Assad regime, she said.
They immediately blamed President Bashar al-Assad's forces for the bomb.
"The whole neighborhood came down to the street," she said.

Sound legit, right? They even staged it themselves. But they say they believe rebels did it, so... We'll keep some kind of tabs on this here.

The new massacres I did find actually pre-date the cease-fire, October 23:
About 25 killed by "Shabiha" or "terrorists," depending who you ask, in rebel-held Douma, Damascus' center for Icky Islamo-nihilist atrocities like this and this (further parts of the "5%" I'm starting to think is closer to 10%, maybe pushing 20 included with CE's and Petri's work, all combined). It was in a residential (apartment?) building, some were killed with knives, women and children were included, some mutilated, but it's no Houla for scale and too early to be my prophecy's fulfillment. It's added to the wiki though.

And a bakery was shelled in the rebel-held Hanano district of Aleppo, not quite a bread line, but I'm noting it. Hanano is where those 20 soldiers were famously executed about a month ago. (less famously, some of them might be women, and at least as many civilian men were also bound and executed in a place and time that seem to be about the same as the soldiers. see here). This new shelling also was a regime crime, designed to terrorize people and color the upcoming cease-fire plan blood red. Children were killed there too.

Tomorrow I'll be busy, and might not get to report back until Sunday, so anyone else feel free to let me know if once again efforts at peace in Syria have been crushed by the slaughter of underage innocents, allegedly by the "regime."

I'll add one final prediction on locale - given the first offensives in Dara'a, Damascus, and Aleppo, the rebels in Homs district and perhaps Deir Azour should be well rested. Expect the regime's shadow killers to allegedly extract their revenge in one of those places, more likely Homs (including Hama and that whole area). Somewhere nothing happened yesterday.
 
The title of the thread is "how can peace in syria be achieved?"

Do you have any serious ideas on how to add to that discussion?

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Nope. Try again.

That is not a mistake. Only reporting what the only groups who have bothered to keep count of how many people have been killed in Syria.

The UN and others have put the number of protesters killed at around 3000 - 5000.

At a time before there was a FSA, before there the Syrians started to fight back against the mass killings by the regime, there were a lot of protests, and thousands of innocent Syrians asking for fair treatment were killed by the regime.


Responding to a question about how many protestors have been killed with: "Syria death toll hits 33,082" is like responding to a question about how many communists died in the Nazi Holocaust with "Six million".

It would be a big mistake!

The same problems that people had with Bush's "axis of evil" comments are the same problems people have with the people that JJ linked to. Blanket blame assertions that ignore any detailed analysis in order to bolster their own personal world views.


Lol! Funny, someone else posting on this thread comes to mind when I read the words "Blanket blame assertions that ignore any detailed analysis in order to bolster their own personal world views"!

Wan't it Jesus who said: “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?"
 
And the third one chines in with the final verse, right on cue. Too perfect!

V, TBV, since HB won't answer the question, how many protesters do you think have been killed?

At least 3000 before they had to turn to armed resistance to defend themselves.

Told you that before.
 
At least 3000 before they had to turn to armed resistance to defend themselves.

Told you that before.

Did you? Sorry. Do you recall your source or have the link handy? 3,000, people who were only protesting, killed prior to what? I hear they turned to arms pretty much right off the bat, some of them. Do you mean the formal launch of the "Free Syrian Army" in July last year? Four months? 3,000 PEOPLE total were estimated dead by the UN as of October 14 last year. For protester deaths alone to get that high would take some time. So what time after Oct. 14 and long after the FSA's creation did 3,000 PROTESTERS finally get even CLAIMED as killed, "before they had to turn to armed resistance to defend themselves"?

You might mean the 3,000 total people reported as missing on July 28, about the same exact time as the FSA's formal creation (the 25th, I think), after some months already of less organized militant activity. You think that might be it? Not too terribly muddled really, but still plenty wrong. Way ahead of HB.
 
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I'll give you a while to double check and see you were wrong and I probably diagnosed exactly your error. Then I'll give you forever to fail to acknowledge that, for just what reason I can't say.
 

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