On Consciousness

[Zeuzzz]

We are apparently no longer discussing consciousness here, but experiences …

Every experience is a conscious experience. You can not separate the two.

 

[Zeuzzz]

I've noticed that the focal point of the eyes has a strong effect on consciousness.
Letting the gaze go parallel enables some odd perceptions. Its akin to not paying attention to what is before your eyes, yet still observing. The brain fills in the blanks.

Try putting a pencil/ruler/object on a desk in front of you. A totally plain desk. Look at it from about two foot away at 30-45 degrees, and focus your eyes really really closely on a point on the desk about ten centimeters behind the object. It is absolutely vital that you do not move your eyes at all for at least 20-30 seconds. The slightest movement will stop the effect working.

The object will totally vanish from the desk. And stay vanished until you move your pupils to check it's still there.

Staring intently into a candle flame for minutes on end in a similar way can produce simply beautiful fractal patterns of light, energy and color to appear dancing around in your peripheral vision too.

 

[Zeuzzz]

But you could talk about this.

What was the tank like -- soundproof? Water temp?

How long?

What did you experience, broadly speaking?

I say this because I've come to believe I have a very high tolerance for sensory dep. But I never did the whole Lilly 9 yards.

It was in a bomb shelter five meters underground. It had plants in, no visible light (only one UV bulb) and was in total silence. After ten minutes of clearing my mind of all thought the vividness of the mental imagery I could visualize was as if I was in a dream, but more aware, and more in control, but I was not directly choosing what I was seeing. After thirty minutes I saw a rave in a forest with tree's dancing in a tent (hell knows why!), a Buddha type energy entity with stars in the background humming to some type of huge nebulae, waterfalls of stars, and many bizarre, natural and abstract wonderful things that are hard to put into words.

 

[quarky]

We are apparently no longer discussing consciousness here, but experiences …

Who cares.

Its the freaking internet. I've studied consciousness.
Adding to Zeusss's candle metaphor, I recommend this simple experiment to examine some of the brain's inner-workings:

Fast for several days. Two weeks works better. Go alone into a forested wilderness and sit in silence for several hours, preferably from a high vantage point during spring or fall, when the pixels perceived come in many colors.
Gaze at the visual data without focus of agenda.

A point will come when the points of light rearrange themselves into something entirely 'other'. When this occurs, a complete and disturbing vertigo will accompany the new pattern of perception. One loses the sense of their physical body.

The first 50 times or so that you experience this will scare the crap out of you; literally, in some cases...hence the wisdom of the fast, prior.
Our inclination, besides ever trying this sort of thing, is to get back to the comfort zone of being sure what is what.

The brave thing to do is to let go and go with it; move within the altered perceptual potential; explore it like a scientist/adventurer.

Consciousness hinges on perception, which hinges on life-long perceptual consensus and bias. This insistence normally prevents us from perceiving (much less acting in) possible simultaneous, parallel, or even not so parallel alternate realities.

Being cock-sure is the opposite of curiosity.
There is some irony, yes, in how cock-sure I am about the value of curiosity in any legitimate examination of anything, including ants, of course.

Is our perception limited by our will; intent; agenda; fear; etc.?

Yes. That's my studied opinion.

Is our definition of consciousness limited by these same factors?

You betcha.

 

[quarky]

btw,
I went sailing; my young friend forced me, against my will, which is weak, to ingest novel molecules along with my novel sail-rigging scenarios.

As mentioned in other recent threads, we are both good swimmers.

So, after all these years, I was forced to engage god, once again, as well as all my dubious moments and overall history; imminent death, and so on.

Here's the good news:

God has a much better sense of humor than the last time he tried to kill me.

 

[quarky]

You should be glad I'm back.
Here's a gold mine, if you like.

Or not, if you don't.

 

[!Kaggen]

I am glad your back quarky
All the half baked thoughts were giving me indigestion.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Try putting a pencil/ruler/object on a desk in front of you. A totally plain desk. Look at it from about two foot away at 30-45 degrees, and focus your eyes really really closely on a point on the desk about ten centimeters behind the object. It is absolutely vital that you do not move your eyes at all for at least 20-30 seconds. The slightest movement will stop the effect working.

The object will totally vanish from the desk. And stay vanished until you move your pupils to check it's still there.

Can someone else verify this? I can make whole books vanish from my vision on a clear surfaced desk if I focus my consciousness enough.

It worked (eventually) for two of my friends that were blown away. The other it did not work for though (maybe he could not keep his eyes still enough for the peripheral vision to be filled in)

 

[Turgor]

Can someone else verify this? I can make whole books vanish from my vision on a clear surfaced desk if I focus my consciousness enough.

It worked (eventually) for two of my friends that were blown away. The other it did not work for though (maybe he could not keep his eyes still enough for the peripheral vision to be filled in)

I think you just found your blind spot?

 

[Mr. Scott]

Can someone else verify this? I can make whole books vanish from my vision on a clear surfaced desk if I focus my consciousness enough.

It worked (eventually) for two of my friends that were blown away. The other it did not work for though (maybe he could not keep his eyes still enough for the peripheral vision to be filled in)

This happens because of nerve cell exhaustion.

Fixed gaze blindness is normally prevented by our usual frequent saccades^WP.

It's a very well known effect and is responsible for afterimages^WP and lots of other odd illusions. If an afterimage is superimposed on the exciting image because of fixed gaze, they cancel out and cause a degree of blindness. Not really a profound spiritual attribute of consciousness because it's well explained by neuroscience.

Have you ever thought about, read, said or heard a word until the word suddenly no longer has meaning? Same cause.

(Turgor is correct. The blind spot (vision)^WP can also cause an effect like this.)

Really, Zeuzzz, if you want to zero in on profound spiritual attributes of consciousness, you have to eliminate those easily explained by neuroscience^WP. Otherwise, you're not really serious in your quest.

 

[calebprime]

It was in a bomb shelter five meters underground. It had plants in, no visible light (only one UV bulb) and was in total silence. After ten minutes of clearing my mind of all thought the vividness of the mental imagery I could visualize was as if I was in a dream, but more aware, and more in control, but I was not directly choosing what I was seeing. After thirty minutes I saw a rave in a forest with tree's dancing in a tent (hell knows why!), a Buddha type energy entity with stars in the background humming to some type of huge nebulae, waterfalls of stars, and many bizarre, natural and abstract wonderful things that are hard to put into words.

Fascinating.

I suspect that I could be in complete sensory dep for up to 8 hours before starting to hallucinate.

First, I'd be aware of faint sounds outside and inside my body.

Then I'd start to key in on whatever music was playing in my brain.

Then I'd think about life, people I knew.

Then, maybe some hallucination, many hours later.

I suspect it depends on how much silence you're used to.

There's a book you might find interesting, or maybe you already know it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_K._Siegel

_Fire in the brain_

 

[calebprime]

Who cares.

Its the freaking internet. I've studied consciousness.
Adding to Zeusss's candle metaphor, I recommend this simple experiment to examine some of the brain's inner-workings:

Fast for several days. Two weeks works better. Go alone into a forested wilderness and sit in silence for several hours, preferably from a high vantage point during spring or fall, when the pixels perceived come in many colors.
Gaze at the visual data without focus of agenda.

A point will come when the points of light rearrange themselves into something entirely 'other'. When this occurs, a complete and disturbing vertigo will accompany the new pattern of perception. One loses the sense of their physical body.

The first 50 times or so that you experience this will scare the crap out of you; literally, in some cases...hence the wisdom of the fast, prior.
Our inclination, besides ever trying this sort of thing, is to get back to the comfort zone of being sure what is what.

The brave thing to do is to let go and go with it; move within the altered perceptual potential; explore it like a scientist/adventurer.

Consciousness hinges on perception, which hinges on life-long perceptual consensus and bias. This insistence normally prevents us from perceiving (much less acting in) possible simultaneous, parallel, or even not so parallel alternate realities.

Being cock-sure is the opposite of curiosity.
There is some irony, yes, in how cock-sure I am about the value of curiosity in any legitimate examination of anything, including ants, of course.

Is our perception limited by our will; intent; agenda; fear; etc.?

Yes. That's my studied opinion.

Is our definition of consciousness limited by these same factors?

You betcha.

glad you're here.

 

[Zeuzzz]

This happens because of nerve cell exhaustion.

Fixed gaze blindness is normally prevented by our usual frequent saccades^WP.

It's a very well known effect and is responsible for afterimages^WP and lots of other odd illusions. If an afterimage is superimposed on the exciting image because of fixed gaze, they cancel out and cause a degree of blindness. Not really a profound spiritual attribute of consciousness because it's well explained by neuroscience.

Have you ever thought about, read, said or heard a word until the word suddenly no longer has meaning? Same cause.

(Turgor is correct. The blind spot (vision)^WP can also cause an effect like this.)

Thanks for the information. Fascinating how this can be explained, although I fully dispute it's due to the blind spot of my optic nerve. I know where that is when I look at two very small points, and it cant take up a large % of my vision.

I've found little on "Fixed gaze blindness" like you said, however, the term most neurologists seem to use for this effect (I seem to remember) is in-attentional blindness? Watched a few seminars by Koch et al where he used the term.

You have probably seen this: The Monkey Business Illusion .

I first saw it during a two hour talk by him on consciousness. When you don't know what your looking for it's amazing how many people do not see it. But I appreciate this is a slightly different visual situation.

Really, Zeuzzz, if you want to zero in on profound spiritual attributes of consciousness, you have to eliminate those easily explained by neuroscience^WP. Otherwise, you're not really serious in your quest.

Oh, ok. Sorry.

What do you mean by "spiritual attributes"? I don't recall ever having mentioned such a term.

Go alone into a forested wilderness and sit in silence for several hours, preferably from a high vantage point during spring or fall, when the pixels perceived come in many colors.
Gaze at the visual data without focus of agenda.

Amen.

 

[PixyMisa]

Can someone else verify this?

Yep, done that. I think I mentioned it earlier - when I was pointing out that our senses lie to us all the time. If not this thread, then it was in another very similar thread; they all blur together after a while. Perfectly normal part of the visual perception pathway.

Staring intently into a candle flame for minutes on end in a similar way can produce simply beautiful fractal patterns of light, energy and color to appear dancing around in your peripheral vision too.

Or just press on your eyeballs with your fingers. Well, don't do that, it's not really a good idea.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Or just press on your eyeballs with your fingers. Well, don't do that, it's not really a good idea.

Not quite the same.

With the candle light you have more sensory stimulation, and of a different sort.

See this video: Butterfly - The Secret Life of Chaos - BBC 4 Preview

The patterns look more like that than the warping of geometry (or black visual spot) you get from poking yourself in the eye.

 

[dlorde]

Thanks for the information. Fascinating how this can be explained, although I fully dispute it's due to the blind spot of my optic nerve. I know where that is when I look at two very small points, and it cant take up a large % of my vision.

It's probably nerve cell exhaustion as previously suggested. Mr. Scott just said the blind spot can produce a similar effect, i.e. objects seem to vanish.

I've found little on "Fixed gaze blindness" like you said, however, the term most neurologists seem to use for this effect (I seem to remember) is in-attentional blindness? Watched a few seminars by Koch et al where he used the term.

They're not the same thing. Inattentional blindness or perceptual blindness is where the fixed focus of attention (i.e. concentrating on something) causes you to fail to notice even quite significant events within the field of vision.

When you don't know what your looking for it's amazing how many people do not see it. But I appreciate this is a slightly different visual situation.

Physiologically it is entirely different.

 

[Mr. Scott]

I've found little on "Fixed gaze blindness"

I coined the term "fixed gaze blindness" for the posting because I don't know a common or scientific name for it.

What do you mean by "spiritual attributes"? I don't recall ever having mentioned such a term.

I coined the phrase "spiritual attributes [of consciousness]" for the posting. It seems to describe your main interest (obsession?) on this subject. That and its metaphysical or supernatural side. Am I wrong?

 

[Zeuzzz]

They're not the same thing. Inattentional blindness or perceptual blindness is where the fixed focus of attention (i.e. concentrating on something) causes you to fail to notice even quite significant events within the field of vision.

Indeed. My fixed focus of conscious attention caused me to fail to notice even a quite significant object in my the field of vision, causing me to be inatttentionally blind to it's presence.

Could you not equally explain it that way?

Physiologically it is entirely different.

How?

I coined the phrase "spiritual attributes [of consciousness]" for the posting. It seems to describe your main interest (obsession?) on this subject. That and its metaphysical or supernatural side. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong when you claim I'm saying it's supernatural. Even natural phenomena not understood are still natural events, even if science does not fully understand them yet.

All I have posted is science.

It's telling you have interpreted them as 'spiritual'.

I personally find that word rather repugnant (way too many religious connotations and theological noise associated with it)

How would you define the word 'spiritual' ? Since you brought it up.

 

[quarky]

I see no reason to dodge the spiritual. Its quite compatible with science.
Maybe its the opposite of a headache.
When the spirit knocks one upside the head, it causes feelings of reverence and humility.

 

[dlorde]

My fixed focus of conscious attention caused me to fail to notice even a quite significant object in my the field of vision, causing me to be inatttentionally blind to it's presence.

Could you not equally explain it that way?

You can explain it however you like, but the idea is to communicate precisely to avoid confusion or misunderstanding.

How?

Mechanism. Exhaustion, refractory periods, habituation, and such quiescence phenomena are functions of nerve cell physiology or of simple neural circuitry. Inattentional blindness is a high-level selective information processing phenomenon.