On Consciousness

[annnnoid]

Well that is not an answer for it is the same reasoning people use to justify a belief in god, sexism and racism.
I am not saying you believe in those things, it is the same logical fallacy.

On a scale of 1-10000....just how much of an oversimplification is this?
You're basically saying ...that it's a mistake to trust yourself because there is a possibility this can lead to logical fallacies.

...and then we have these constant protestations that your initial statement…

About 99% of human behaviors are learned and not biologically determined.

…has somehow been misrepresented.

….Huh…!?!?!?!?! How is it remotely possible to misrepresent that statement? Perhaps someone could point out anywhere there is a shred of ambiguity hiding in those words.

Context…? Let’s review… I simply asked the question: What is learned and what is inherited, intuitive, instinctual. This is…with an extra word or two…an expression of the perennial ‘nature / nurture’ debate. This was in response to a question about how we may conclude what is, or is not, conscious. I introduced the idea that we have the ability to ‘know’ (I also introduced the ‘idea’ of an alternate epistemology). Pixy responded (as usual) with a ‘no’….claiming that it is learned behavior. I then asked the question I summarized (…’what is learned…..’).

Your initial statement (2761) and your subsequent elaboration (2771)) are precisely what I sent to the individuals I quoted.


Based on both of your responses (2760, 2761) I had a choice: conclude you’re either dumb or simply being contrary. I chose the latter.


Since I cannot claim to be particularly knowledgeable about the nature / nurture debate I figured I would simply get the opinions of a few individuals who very likely are. While looking into the matter, I found the information relating to the identical twins studies. I really don’t think it’s necessary to explore, in detail, the protocols and methodologies in order to assign some credibility to those conclusions…especially as they are consistent with what seems to be the general consensus.

Too late for that.
[Remaining garbage snipped.]

Too late…why? Has the question been hiding somewhere? Typically, evasion is associated with capitulation…but I’ll leave that to you to decide.

Explain how your belief in GOD affects your understanding of the nature of consciousness.

Explain why you’re asking the question. If you provide an honest answer, I will as well. Keep in mind that you have made numerous highly disparaging and idiotic remarks relating to this subject in the past. I shall assume those accurately reflect your thoughts on the matter.

 

[Dancing David]

Annoid, I did not say that biology played no role, but temperament is not exactly a firm metric. Nor is it exactly a behavior.

I do not recall anything about misrepresentation at all, I recall asking if you had included teh statement about instinct that I responded to.

The twins studies do need to be examined in the context of their protocols, as otherwise certain conclusions can be hard to understand, such how an interest in sports was measured and controlled for.

 

[Mr. Scott]

Explain how your belief in GOD affects your understanding of the nature of consciousness.

Explain why you’re asking the question. If you provide an honest answer, I will as well. Keep in mind that you have made numerous highly disparaging and idiotic remarks relating to this subject in the past. I shall assume those accurately reflect your thoughts on the matter.

Sometimes I tire of the preaching, lecturing, and haranguing. I wanted to give you the opportunity to share your inner thoughts with us, and hopefully inspire you to do some reflection on your bias. I am sorry if I put you on the defensive.

I have made "highly disparaging and idiotic remarks" on what subject? Consciousness? Belief in God? In this thread? I do disparage religion, but I'd think if you were secure, you'd take disparagement in stride. I'm not aware of anything I've said here that's "idiotic." Quote a "highly disparaging," and an "idiotic" remark I've made, if you don't mind.

and then...

Explain how your belief in GOD affects your understanding of the nature of consciousness.

Thank you

 

[Dancing David]

Annnnoid, I want to apologize for putting god on the list of mistaken beliefs, I did not mean it to be inflammatory to you. I will revise my list of mistaken beliefs for future postings. Most likely I will use angels rather than god.

 

[Roboramma]

Too late…why? Has the question been hiding somewhere? Typically, evasion is associated with capitulation…but I’ll leave that to you to decide..

I may not be Pixy, but I addressed your question. Somehow you've evaded addressing my response. Yet you clearly haven't capitulated, as you're continuing to act as though you think it's a valid question.

Here's my response again, in case you missed it:

Asking someone who has no information about something to use analytical tools that aren't useful when applied to the problem under discussion wouldn't be rational.

On the other hand, what is rational is applying rational analysis to an understanding of your own emotional and sexual responses to a person (as well as anything else that's relevant) when determining who to date.

For instance, you might meet a girl that you like but who is planning on moving half way around the world next month. You may also know that you are neither interested in a fling nor in moving half way around the world yourself. In that case you can rationally decide not to date her. Of course, other factors may come in to the analysis.

Asking a physics prof about this sort of question is like asking your accountant to do heart surgery.

 

[Zeuzzz]

We are conscious beings having a human experience.

Not human beings having a conscious experience.

 

[deaman]

Just words.

We are conscious beings having a human experience.

Not human beings having a conscious experience.

Really lovely sounding, sentimental quote.

What evidence do you offer as proof?

 

[Zeuzzz]

Neuroscience, biology, striking convergence of subjective effects of chemically disparate hallucinogens that target the 5HTa receptors when people breakthrough, meta analysis of NDE experiences, and personal experience.

 

[Zeuzzz]

I have mentioned these in quite some detail in previous posts, but they tended to be the ones that were ignored by the computation minded people here.

 

[deaman]

Excellent!

Neuroscience, biology, striking convergence of subjective effects of chemically disparate hallucinogens that target the 5HTa receptors when people breakthrough, meta analysis of NDE experiences, and personal experience.

Now that you have completely figured consciousness out, where will you be publishing this truth?

 

[Zeuzzz]

Now that you have completely figured consciousness out, where will you be publishing this truth?

What truth?

And you should start with just mainstream science journals, but just reverse the cause and effect. Nothing changes. Science is still a great method for gaining knowledge, just viewing the data this way round makes explaining the things I have talked in this thread before far easier to explain.

No one is proclaiming truth. I'm merely sharing my views, personal experiences and research.

You either have a point of contention to continue a productive dialogue or this conversation is over.

 

[deaman]

You made a statement.

What truth?

And you should start with just mainstream science journals, but just reverse the cause and effect. Nothing changes. Science is still a great method for gaining knowledge, just viewing the data this way round makes explaining the things I have talked in this thread before far easier to explain.

No one is proclaiming truth. I'm merely sharing my views, personal experiences and research.

You either have a point of contention to continue a productive dialogue or this conversation is over.

A very emphatic statement: We are conscious beings having a human experience. Not human beings having a conscious experience.

I am unaware of any definitive definition of consciousness. I am aware that there are many theories and all kinds of opinions. I asked for your proof and you basically said, "Read magazines and journals and reverse the cause and effect" and/or "live my life and have my experiences."

I now understand, your short statement was just "your opinion". Sorry to have perturbed you.

 

[Zeuzzz]

I now understand, your short statement was just "your opinion". Sorry to have perturbed you.

As are pretty much everyones statements.

And you did not disturb me, but thanks for your apology.

Its far better than simply saying "no" or "you are wrong".

 

[Zeuzzz]

If the search function for threads was not so hopelessly unreliable I would use it to link you to my longest posts in this thread, but as it stands that would take ages.

 

[deaman]

Well, this is a long, windy one.

The understanding of consciousness, or even our human-ness, is a topic of great interest to me, but it has become all to clear that even people (much smarter people) who dedicate their lives to undertake such studies, do not posses a clear, definitive answer as to what these things (terms? words?) mean.

It's a little like trying to describe chocolate to someone who has never indulged, or trying to teach someone to ride a bike, using only verbal descriptions.

I am starting to suspect, "thinking" and "talking" (posting?) about these things, simply pushes the actual experience of these things, one more "illusion" away. Do you know what I mean?

Nothing personal. Your quote gave "me" (me, myself, I) an emotional kick because it seemed so "Hallmark Card". I have heard the same phrase used thusly: We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience. Really? How does anyone know that? As a fellow human being, I know how to parrot things I've heard before, that sound nice, but really I haven't a clue about.

So really, "I" am the one "disturbed" by a comment, which I felt was an oversimplification, over-sentimentilized, under evidenced, repeat, of something we have all heard at one time or another.

What I am trying to express is that I am trying to hold off the "in-the-box thoughts", in order that some out-of-the-box "reality" might show up.

 

[Dancing David]

We are conscious beings having a human experience.

Not human beings having a conscious experience.

We are bodies that exhibit the behaviors labeled as consciousness.

 

[deaman]

Wow....

We are bodies that exhibit the behaviors labeled as consciousness.

..I think this statement is "closer" to reality.

 

[Zeuzzz]

We are bodies that exhibit the behaviors labeled as consciousness.

Certainly seems that way doesn't it?

Until you ingest, say, 900mg of mescaline, and watch material reality and your ego dissolve.

Luckily the material part always returns, it's your choice if the ego stays or not from then on.

It was a mental construct anyway. Just like other construct that returned was.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Now, what's really interesting is how controlling things can start consciously and, with practice, become automatic, like playing a musical instrument. We first learn to, say, consciously press each piano key, and after years of conscious practice, we can just command the hands to play something sad, and the now unconscious processes make it happen.

This is interesting, for years when I was learning boogie woogie on piano I just could not get the rhythms right. The left hand all syncopated and highly rhythmic, with the right hand all over the place with no rhythm. Then one day it just clicked. I could play with only my right hand and just let my left do what it had been programmed to, I never even look at it now I've got the basic blues sequence mastered. All consciousness is on the right hand at all times, until I want the slightest change in the left hands notes or rhythm.

 

[Roboramma]

We are bodies that exhibit the behaviors labeled as consciousness.

Well said.

These last few posts and their quoted text are making me glad I followed ben m's lead earlier.

Perhaps you'd like to join us?