On Consciousness

[Dancing David]

Certainly seems that way doesn't it?

Until you ingest, say, 900mg of mescaline, and watch material reality and your ego dissolve.

Luckily the material part always returns, it's your choice if the ego stays or not from then on.

It was a mental construct anyway. Just like other construct that returned was.

As a warrior retired from the war on drugs, I have to say I still have no idea what you are talking about. Without the body there is no consciousness to experience intoxication.

Ego, that sounds rather old fashioned and gas light to me.

 

[Dancing David]

Well said.

These last few posts and their quoted text are making me glad I followed ben m's lead earlier.

Perhaps you'd like to join us?

No thanks, I only do so to keep from getting infracted, I do at times but then stop after two weeks.

 

[tsig]

Now that you have completely figured consciousness out, where will you be publishing this truth?

Rolling stone.

 

[Zeuzzz]

As a warrior retired from the war on drugs, I have to say I still have no idea what you are talking about. Without the body there is no consciousness to experience intoxication.

Ego, that sounds rather old fashioned and gas light to me.

The body is still there, but your consciousness is so distorted and removed from the brain you are not aware of your physical body, or anything physical for that mater.

Explained here by Huxley: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_experience#Level_5
Ego Death is explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death

 

[Zeuzzz]

http://news.discovery.com/animals/zooms/animals-consciousness-mammals-birds-octopus-120824.html

BREAKING NEWS: Animals Are as With It as Humans, Scientists Say.
- A prominent group of scientists signs a document stating that animals are just as "conscious and aware" as humans are. This is a BIG deal.

THE GIST
* An international group
of prominent scientists supports the idea that animals are conscious and aware to the degree that humans are.
* The list includes all mammals, birds and even some encephlopods.
* The group says consciousness can emerge even in those animals that are very much unlike humans.

The list of animals that are regarded as being as with it as humans includes all mammals, birds and even encephlopods.

An international group of prominent scientists has signed The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness in which they are proclaiming their support for the idea that animals are conscious and aware to the degree that humans are -- a list of animals that includes all mammals, birds, and even the octopus. But will this make us stop treating these animals in totally inhumane ways?

While it might not sound like much for scientists to declare that many nonhuman animals possess conscious states, it's the open acknowledgement that's the big news here. The body of scientific evidence is increasingly showing that most animals are conscious in the same way that we are, and it's no longer something we can ignore.

(WATCH VIDEO: Apes Giggle Like Humans)

NEWS: How Long Until We Learn Animal Languages?

What's also very interesting about the declaration is the group's acknowledgement that consciousness can emerge in those animals that are very much unlike humans, including those that evolved along different evolutionary tracks, namely birds and some encephalopods.

"The absence of a neocortex does not appear to preclude an organism from experiencing affective states," they write. "Convergent evidence indicates that non-human animals have the neuroanatomical, neurochemical, and neurophysiological substrates of conscious states along with the capacity to exhibit intentional behaviors."

Consequently, say the signatories, the scientific evidence is increasingly indicating that humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness.

NEWS: Dolphins May Be Math Geniuses

The group consists of cognitive scientists, neuropharmacologists, neurophysiologists, neuroanatomists, and computational neuroscientists -- all of whom were attending the Francis Crick Memorial Conference on Consciousness in Human and Non-Human Animals. The declaration was signed in the presence of Stephen Hawking, and included such signatories as Christof Koch, David Edelman, Edward Boyden, Philip Low, Irene Pepperberg, and many more.

The declaration made the following observations:
[snip]

I should probably get a warning for no reason at all for posting this, thus this post should probably be moved to abandon all hope for no reason at all, like my previous humerous video about the consciousness and intelligence of chimps was.

Why anthropomorphize animal intelligence and consciousness? Why is talk of animals consciousness seen as a derail in a thread about consciousness? They are just as conscious as we are. Just in different ways.

 

[Zeuzzz]

This is super cool

This chimp will kick your ass at memory games — but how the hell does he do it?

This is Ayumu, he's an 11-year-old chimpanzee who lives and trains at Kyoto University's Primate Research Institute. In his time there, Ayumu has come to excel at an incredibly difficult — albeit very straightforward — memorization game. If you challenge him to this game, you will lose.

Allow me to be perfectly clear
: there is absolutely zero chance of you besting Ayumu; he will positively destroy you, and he will do it with ease. But how does he do it?

There's a good chance you've heard of Ayumu before. Back in 2007, the media ran wild with news of his incredible feats of memory, with headlines like "are you smarter than a chimp?"

For those of you unfamiliar with his abilities, this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJAH4ZJBiN8) demonstrates Ayumu doing what he does best: a straightforward working-memory challenge. Cognitive psychologists use the term "working memory" to describe the mind's ability to temporarily store and manipulate information. In this case, that information is the position of arabic numerals on a touch-sensitive screen. Ayumu is shown the numbers 1—9 on the computer screen, and given just a fraction of a second to commit their randomized location to memory. Once that fraction of a second is up, the numbers are covered with white squares, at which point Ayumu must select them in numerical order.

What makes this feat especially impressive is how little time Ayumu is allotted to commit the numbers' positions to memory before they are covered by the squares. This length of time can be varied by the researchers who study Ayumu; generally speaking, shorter time allotments translate to poorer task performance.

[snip]

Actually watch the video and try to beat a monkey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJAH4ZJBiN8

Kinda crazy

 

[tensordyne]

As a warrior retired from the war on drugs...

I am glad you are retired from that ridiculous and detrimental police action.

 

[Dancing David]

I am glad you are retired from that ridiculous and detrimental police action.

I was one of the rebel partisans... fighting for the liberty to be addicted.

 

[tensordyne]

I was one of the rebel partisans... fighting for the liberty to be addicted.

Interesting... I am glad you are against fake crimes, and of course it goes beyond just a right to be "addicted". Cannabis is a medicine for instance (and not addictive!). Good to know though I judged your statements incorrectly. Thanks.

As per consciousness, good luck. Too many people have so many religious convictions about it (even some supposedly even-headed skeptical atheists, which makes me sad really) for anything like thoughtful debate. Oh well, dead thread redux or just another random comment in the internets.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Creative commons, public picture.

Richard Dawkins quotes this at a TED talk, you can watch it here: http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_dawkins_on_our_queer_universe.html

* We shed our skin cells about every 35 days
* Red blood cells live about 120 days, platelets 6 days and white cells less than a day
* Most of the adult skeleton is replaced about every 10 years
* The average age of a fat cell seems to be a
bout 10 years
* a 25-year-old heart replaces about 1% of all its cardiomyocytes (heart muscle cells ) over the course of a year, while a 75-year-old heart replaces about half a percent
* our neocortical neurons, the cell type that mediates much of our cognition, are produced prenatally and retained for our entire lifespan

For the 'computers are conscious, or nearly conscious' lot here, how often will conscious AI computers wear out their parts then regenerate them via subconscious processes, and how will they re-assemble them selves? Just like every conscious thing we know in existence does, to varying extents.

 

[steenkh]

For the 'computers are conscious, or nearly conscious' lot here, how often will conscious AI computers wear out their parts then regenerate them via subconscious processes, and how will they re-assemble them selves? Just like every conscious thing we know in existence does, to varying extents.

Is this an argument somehow? Are you claiming that consciousness is dependent on replacing its parts?

There are many other differences between brains and computers. For instance, brains contains large amounts of water. How many computers contain water? (well, some are cooled by water, but none are fed their energy through a mechanism involving water)

 

[Soapy Sam]

The wheel bearings in my car are not the same ones that were there eight years ago.
Yet at 2000rpm in top gear on a level road , the speed of the car is 70mph- exactly as it was 8 years ago.
Is it the same car? Am I the same owner?
Well, it's my name on the servicing bills, so yes, I suspect it is.

 

[dlorde]

* our neocortical neurons, the cell type that mediates much of our cognition, are produced prenatally and retained for our entire lifespan

For the 'computers are conscious, or nearly conscious' lot here, how often will conscious AI computers wear out their parts then regenerate them via subconscious processes, and how will they re-assemble them selves? Just like every conscious thing we know in existence does, to varying extents.

why would they need to, if they follow the example of our neocortical neurons?

 

[Kuko 4000]

This is super cool

Actually watch the video and try to beat a monkey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJAH4ZJBiN8

Kinda crazy

Zeuzzz, did you read the description in that video?

NOTE: The accuracy of the findings presented in this video, and this study itself, has been disputed.
See the links below for more information:

This is the first link:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h842v2702r60u481/

ANIMAL COGNITION
Volume 12, Number 2 (2009), 405-407, DOI: 10.1007/s10071-008-0206-8

While the between-species performance difference they report is apparent in their data, so too is a large difference in practice on their task: Ayumu had many sessions of practice on their task before terminal performances were measured; their human subjects had none. The present report shows that when two humans are given practice in the Inoue and Matsuzawa (2007) memory task, their accuracy levels match those of Ayumu.

 

[quarky]

Even though I left in disgust, here I am again.

Amazing how this thread has staying power.
I mostly stopped by to let Zeusss know that I appreciate his struggle.

Discussing consciousness without addressing altered states of it feels kind of cheap to me.

I gave my car a huge dose of acid, and it behaved like the same retard it used to be.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Discussing consciousness without addressing altered states of it feels kind of cheap to me.

Is there a rule for this? I think/know you were banned briefly before for recommending a scientific test anyone can choose to do, at their own free will, to study altered states of consciousness before, which is why I have held back so far in many regards with my posts.

Is there a thread or discussion about that incident I can look at, so I can judge what's culturally acceptable here?

Meanwhile I'm going to use 53.4mg 5-meo-dmt sublingually tonight, and try to cheat my way to a level five state of consciousness, like I did previously this week just by naturally mediating in an isolation tank.

I wont mention what happens though until this rule is cleared up. I would hate to break any rules.

 

[Roboramma]

Discussing consciousness without addressing altered states of it feels kind of cheap to me.

Òuckiy the a¬tered states of consciousness have been addressed No one is ignoring them

(my keyboard is messed up at the moment, usually I'll spend the time to copy and paste "l's" and periods into my posts, but the above just seemed to fit like that, so I'm keeping it)

 

[calebprime]

Is there a rule for this? I think/know you were banned briefly before for recommending a scientific test anyone can choose to do, at their own free will, to study altered states of consciousness before, which is why I have held back so far in many regards with my posts.

Is there a thread or discussion about that incident I can look at, so I can judge what's culturally acceptable here?

Meanwhile I'm going to use 53.4mg 5-meo-dmt sublingually tonight, and try to cheat my way to a #Level_5]level five state of consciousness, like I did previously this week just by naturally mediating in an isolation tank.[/HILITE]

I wont mention what happens though until this rule is cleared up. I would hate to break any rules.

But you could talk about this.

What was the tank like -- soundproof? Water temp?

How long?

What did you experience, broadly speaking?

I say this because I've come to believe I have a very high tolerance for sensory dep. But I never did the whole Lilly 9 yards.

 

[quarky]

I've noticed that the focal point of the eyes has a strong effect on consciousness.
Letting the gaze go parallel enables some odd perceptions. Its akin to not paying attention to what is before your eyes, yet still observing. The brain fills in the blanks.

 

[steenkh]

We are apparently no longer discussing consciousness here, but experiences …