• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

Status
Not open for further replies.
Mickey Mouse has been in existence since 1928 or so. It's just that such a child's item evokes things like throwing babies in the air and catching them on their bayonets.
You keep going on about this particular subject. What part of it do you find "incredible" and why?

Now THAT is supposed to be evidence pro or contra, not the mere finding of the reported unspecified amount of ash and some Mickey Mouse item for dramatic effect. So let's wait and see for any reporting of that.
Likewise, why does the factual reporting of what artifacts were discovered seem to bother you so much?
 
Originally Posted by Simon666:
Mickey Mouse has been in existence since 1928 or so. It's just that such a child's item evokes things like throwing babies in the air and catching them on their bayonets.
According to Stadsarchief Amsterdam records, Lea Judith de la Penha came into existence in that city in 1937.

According to NIOD files: Folgende Personen aus Amsterdam sind am 6.Juli 1943 ueber Lager Westerbork Abgereist:
1026 de la Penha David 12.8.09 Gr.Florisstr.5
1027 de la Penha Judith 11.5.37 Gr.Florisstr.5
1173 Rodrigues Parreira Judith 27.9.03 Gr.Florisstr.5

I posted a link for the page of her family in Joods Monument online above. What does the image evoke for you, Simon666?

What does the finding of a metal tag with the name and date of birth of Lea Judith de la Penha under Sobibor evoke for you, Simon666?

If this is all an ongoing hoax, why did the hoaxers pick her name to engrave on an object to be found during archaeological work in Sobibor? When was this decided and by whom?

De la Penha, Rodrigues Parreira what kind of names are that anyway, Simon666? Snaketongue?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Does Paul Rassinier count?

Yes he counts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Rassinier

"For eleven days, Rassinier was interrogated, the beatings involved leading to a broken jaw, crushed hand and ruptured kidney."

"Rassinier was then deported to Germany, enduring a three-day rail transport that ended on January 30, 1944, at Buchenwald concentration camp."

"In his first book Crossing the Line, he says several factors contributed to his survival. Beginning in April, 1944, his wife mailed him food parcels, though this stopped in November. His friendship with his Block Chief resulted in his parcel being delivered directly to him without first being plundered by the prisoner government. For a time, he landed a cushy job in "Schwung" (a position somewhere between orderly and manservant) to the S.S. Oberscharführer commanding the guard dog company, and got the opportunity to observe the S.S. at close range. Also, partly as a result of his interrogation, he came down with nephritis, and spent no less than two hundred and fifty days of his imprisonment in the Revier (infirmary)."

"On April 7, 1945, he was evacuated from Dora on what became a death train, endlessly traveling the German rail network from one bombed-out destination to another, with no food, water, or shelter..."

So what happened to him is just as was described with the plans described at Wannsee, but he got lucky and survived. An excellent witness to the Holocaust, whether he thinks so or not.
 
You keep going on about this particular subject. What part of it do you find "incredible" and why?
I don't find it incredible. It's because I'm Belgian. My great great grandfather was lucky to escape such bayoneting in WWI. The Germans tossed him into the air six times but he ended up next to the bayonet each time. It's a miracle. I'm a survivor of German atrocities too.

I posted a link for the page of her family in Joods Monument online above. What does the image evoke for you, Simon666?
That somehow some people were deported quite far away from home unfortunately for them.

What does the finding of a metal tag with the name and date of birth of Lea Judith de la Penha under Sobibor evoke for you, Simon666?
That she was there at one point in time.

If this is all an ongoing hoax, why did the hoaxers pick her name to engrave on an object to be found during archaeological work in Sobibor? When was this decided and by whom?
Well obviously she was there. As to what it proves, why don't you tell me? :rolleyes:

De la Penha, Rodrigues Parreira what kind of names are that anyway, Simon666? Snaketongue?
Spanish respectively Portuguese? Doesn't sound all that Jewish.
 
Actually the item I was most surprised about was the gold pin. Given how particular the Germans were of stripping the victims of anything of value, seeing that item overlooked surprised me
Maybe it is a clue such claims are more evidence for horror propaganda? I've been wondering how much time it would take to inspect the mouths of 3000 individual gassing victims for gold teeth and extract them if necessary, potentially at the peril of the lungs probably still contain some cyanide gas. But maybe I ask too many questions.
 
De la Penha, Rodrigues Parreira what kind of names are that anyway, Simon666? Snaketongue?
Spanish and Portuguese again.

The most touching find thus far, he said, has been an engraved metal identification tag bearing the name of Lea Judith de la Penha, a 6-year-old Jewish girl from Holland who Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial confirmed was murdered at the camp. Haimi calls her the "symbol of Sobibor."
http://io9.com/5938609/archaeological-dig-at-concentration-camp-reveals-what-the-nazis-tried-to-hide


So let's check Yad Vashem:

David Penha de la was born in Amsterdam, The Netherlands in 1909. During the war he was in The Netherlands. David was murdered in 1943 in Sobibor, Camp. This information is based on a List of murdered Jews from the Netherlands found in In Memoriam - Nederlandse oorlogsslachtoffers, Nederlandse Oorlogsgravenstichting (Dutch War Victims Authority), `s-Gravenhage (courtesy of the Association of Yad Vashem Friends in Netherlands, Amsterdam).
http://db.yadvashem.org/names/nameDetails.html?itemId=4278909&language=en


Great, on to Oorlogsgravenstichting:

Achternaam Penha
Tussenvoegsels de la
Voornamen David
Voorletters D.
Titel

Beroep


Geboorteplaats Amsterdam
Geboortedatum 12-08-1909
Overlijdensplaats Sobibor
Overlijdensdatum 09-07-1943
http://srs.ogs.nl/index.php?go=home.slachtoffer&id=116473

No further info. If this is supposed to prove anything with respect to jews, Bluespaceoddity, care to please prove first these are jews? If everyone that died in WWII was a jew and put on Yad Vashem and Joods Monument, maybe there were 6 million after all. :rolleyes:
 
Anyway, it does check out. Portuguese jews.

Vader en moeder trouwden in Amsterdam op 8 augustus 1934. In 1936 kregen David en Judith hun eerste kind, dat of doodgeboren was of snel overleed op 5 april 1936. Dit kind werd op 6 april op Beth Haim in Ouderkerk aan de Amstel begraven.
http://www.joodsamsterdam.nl/persdelapenhaleajudith.htm


Beth Haim (Hebreeuws voor "Huis des Levens") is een Portugees-Israëlitische (Sefardische) begraafplaats in Ouderkerk aan de Amstel, ten zuiden van Amsterdam.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth_Haim


Vader, moeder en Lea werden in 1943 opgepakt en gingen op 6 juli vanuit Westerbork op transport naar Sobibor met het 68e transport. In dit transport zaten 2417 mensen. Bij aankomst op 9 juli 1943 werden de mensen uit dit transport vrijwel direct vermoord, van 3 van hen werden na 9 juli 1943 nog levenstekens ontvangen, 2 kaarten uit werkkamp Dorohucza, 1 kaart uit Lublin. David, Judith en Lea werden op 9 juli 1943 vermoord.


Date of death is however based upon NOTHING more than arrival, even though except for the girl, the parents were of working age and capabilities and at least 3 people are known to have lived past that date and have sent cards back home, 2 from a work camp alright. Seems like Sobibor was a transit camp for at the very least 3 people alright instead of station terminus for all as some would have us believe.
 
I have a few questions, I am sure you can answer concerning how many questions you already have answered:

1. The document you quote containing the word "Vergasungskeller" is an obvious carbon copy of a typewritten text. Such carbon copies in German are called "Durchschrift "or "Durchschlag ". The text however has the heading "Abschrift ", meaning: transcript.
The text on display therefore is a carbon copy of a transcript of the original.
Question 1: Why does anybody make a transcript of such a letter. The letter is a reply to criticism on certain delays in finishing a building. As such it must be suitable to be used as evidence in a legal debate, in case the customer intends to reduce the negotiated payment for the work. A transcript certainly isn't.

In the same letter the delay of delivery of the air conditioning system is justified by "freight car blockade". Wasn 't this the time when those freight trains were rolling day and night or was this earlier or later?


http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19430129-vergasungskeller/

In the inventory lists of Krematorium II and Krematorium 2 or the related "Leichenkeller " ("Dead Body Caves " ) 14 "Brausen "are ordered, translated into: "shower ". "Shower" however is "Dusche" in German, "Brause " is a "sprinkler" (although being used sometimes for "shower " too). Such sprinklers are an essential part of an autopsy workplace (see link Nr. 2, page 3), essential like the undressing room in a place were autopsies are performed (for undressing of staff, that is why they must be heated, see link. Nr.3, page 6). That however is not my question.
According to what I know (correct me if I am wrong), the absence of water piping and installations are seen as proof that those showers were bogus showers. However in the paper also 44 / 46 lamps (Kugellampe: ball lamp) were ordered along with 9 and 8 water taps (Zapfhahn). Is the absence of cables and switches any evidence that those lamps and taps were bogus lamps and bogus taps? How was the room illuminated then? And what were the bogus taps for?

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/page430.shtml

http://www.medisgmbh.de/pdf/MA-3500.pdf

http://www.meduniwien.ac.at/hp/file...neplan_sondersektion_klinische_pathologie.pdf
 
Originally Posted by Simon666
Mickey Mouse has been in existence since 1928 or so. It's just that such a child's item evokes things like throwing babies in the air and catching them on their bayonets.

You keep going on about this particular subject. What part of it do you find "incredible" and why?


iirc, the "Germans bayonetting Belgian babies" comes from WW1 propaganda, hence 'revisionists' like to bring it up. The inferance being that stories of Nazis killing Jewish babies/children must all be false too.
 
Maybe it is a clue such claims are more evidence for horror propaganda? I've been wondering how much time it would take to inspect the mouths of 3000 individual gassing victims for gold teeth and extract them if necessary, potentially at the peril of the lungs probably still contain some cyanide gas. But maybe I ask too many questions.

You mean questions like "can you quantify this 'peril' -- how many ppm would be left in the lungs, and then how much of that would reach the extractor from, say, a foot away?"
 
....

Date of death is however based upon NOTHING more than arrival, even though except for the girl, the parents were of working age and capabilities and at least 3 people are known to have lived past that date and have sent cards back home, 2 from a work camp alright. Seems like Sobibor was a transit camp for at the very least 3 people alright instead of station terminus for all as some would have us believe.

It is proof she had here property taken from here there.

Now prove Sobibor was a transit camp only with people arriving and leaving in at least reasonably equal numbers, taking into account deaths on the trains and disease.
 
Date of death is however based upon NOTHING more than arrival, even though except for the girl, the parents were of working age and capabilities and at least 3 people are known to have lived past that date and have sent cards back home, 2 from a work camp alright. Seems like Sobibor was a transit camp for at the very least 3 people alright instead of station terminus for all as some would have us believe.
You aren't familiar with Jules Schelvis's book on Sobibor and with his life story? Anyway, you seem to be conflating exception with rule.
 
It is proof she had here property taken from here there.

Now prove Sobibor was a transit camp only with people arriving and leaving in at least reasonably equal numbers, taking into account deaths on the trains and disease.
If even historians can't, how could I?

It is very difficult to say how many people passed through the Sobibor work camps or perished there. The subject - small work camps within the death camp's surroundings - is not generally known among historians and requires further research.
http://www.deathcamps.org/sobibor/labourcamps.html

Edited by LashL: 
Moderated thread.

I do notice that there were more than 15 surrounding work camps with horrible enough living conditions as to render homicidal gas chambers at Sobibor perhaps not even necessary for ending the lives of several tens of thousands of people. So Sobibor certainly did function as a transit camp alright.

Sobibor Work Camps
These forced labour camps were set up in the swampy surroundings of Sobibor: Czerniejow, Dorohusk, Kamien, Krychow, Luta, Nowosiolki, Osowa, Ruda Opalin, Sawin, Siedliszcze, Sobibor-village, Staw-Sajczyce, Tomaszowka, Ujazdow, Wlodawa and Zmudz.
http://www.deathcamps.org/sobibor/labourcamps.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You aren't familiar with Jules Schelvis's book on Sobibor and with his life story? Anyway, you seem to be conflating exception with rule.
No. I did find back that by his own admission he was only a few hours in Sobibor and claims to be one of 18 alleged Dutch survivors, of which he is the only one that spoke or wrote of the ordeal, the other 17 seem unknown. How you can write a book on a place where you've only been a few hours puzzles me. Or how you can be Nebenkläger in the process against Demjanjuk if you've only been there a few hours passing through.
 
Maybe it is a clue such claims are more evidence for horror propaganda? I've been wondering how much time it would take to inspect the mouths of 3000 individual gassing victims for gold teeth and extract them if necessary, potentially at the peril of the lungs probably still contain some cyanide gas. But maybe I ask too many questions.

Who claims they inspected all 3,000 individuals?

But maybe I ask too many questions.
 
I don't find it incredible. It's because I'm Belgian. My great great grandfather was lucky to escape such bayoneting in WWI. The Germans tossed him into the air six times but he ended up next to the bayonet each time. It's a miracle. I'm a survivor of German atrocities too.

Which explains your incredulity, how?

Mickey Mouse has been in existence since 1928 or so. It's just that such a child's item evokes things like throwing babies in the air and catching them on their bayonets.
 
No. I did find back that by his own admission he was only a few hours in Sobibor and claims to be one of 18 alleged Dutch survivors, of which he is the only one that spoke or wrote of the ordeal, the other 17 seem unknown. How you can write a book on a place where you've only been a few hours puzzles me. Or how you can be Nebenkläger in the process against Demjanjuk if you've only been there a few hours passing through.

This is still mixed up. Schelvis's life story - as you must know if you've read his book on Sobibor - puts in proper context, and debunks, the game you were playing with "transit camp"; on the other hand, his life story isn't the basis for his narrative. The answer to your rather surprising puzzlement is simple: by doing research. Schelvis's motivation came from his own experience; yet the work is based on research he was motivated to do, not on his recollections. Either you haven't read the book and thus confuse Schelvis's experience with his scholarship - or you are aware of what you're doing and are trying to confuse readers of this thread. It's much ado about nothing, in any event, as people routinely produce documented works of scholarship about places they've never been and events they haven't been part of.
 
People died in their clothes Nick. They were cremated naked. What happened in between?

Oh, finally you get around to trying to reinterpet Auskleidekeller.

In case you forgot, I specifically addressed this earlier by pointing out that Auskleidekeller suggests people undressing themselves. As does the fact that the undressing room was entered via stairs with quite a tight turn, not very compatible with stretcher bearers bringing down a corpse, and there was no longer a planned corpse slide/chute, which was walled off.
 
Since I do not have Danuta Czech's Kalendarium available, I suppose you wouldn't be as kind as to provide that evidence in a more direct form?

http://deportati.it/librionline/Kalendarium.html

start in November 1944.

90.000 shoes (hundreds of thousand for Auschwitz and Majdanek together) proves nothing as to 1.5 million victims at Majdanek Nick. It doesn't even prove 90.000 deaths. It proves 90.000 or less people lost one or more pairs of shoes to ze evil Nazis.

What source are you reading? The Soviets found 820,000 pairs of shoes at Majdanek.
http://www.jewishgen.org/forgottenCamps/Camps/MajdanekReport.html

The shoe mountain was also specifically commented on by press reporters brought to the site in August 1944, not just by Soviet reporter Konstantin Simononv but by Life magazine
http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/van/III

The 820,000 pairs of shoes were undoubtedly the only quantity that is even vaguely close to the 1.5 million originally estimated. If you read the Soviet report you'll notice that none of the killing actions described go much beyond low five figures and would if added up fit into the current accepted death toll of 78,000.

Meanwhile, the 1.5 million estimate is accurate for all the Lublin/Reinhard camps including Belzec, Sobibior and Treblinka. One of Majdanek's functions was to process property robbed from deportees to the Reinhard camps, which is why there were so many shoes found on-site.

The Nazis managed to remove more of the property from Auschwitz before it was liberated (and also tried setting some of the property sorting barracks on fire) but left 7 tons of women's hair behind.
http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/van/IV

That in turn became the symbol of genocide at Auschwitz in the initial reporting - it was prominently filmed for a show reel used at Nuremberg, and the Soviet press chose images of investigators clambering over the stacked bales of hair for still photos used in the press in May 1945.

Except for the tiny overlooked fact that dwindling is gradual, not supporting the theory of a decision taken at a single point in time to stop registering the deaths of jewish inmates. Those Nazis sure knew how to cook the books.

LOL, now you're playing semantic games with idiomatic expressions used in a language which isn't your own.

Just to end this pointless charade, I've pulled off the following book from my shelves:

Grotum, Thomas, Das digitale Archiv. Aufbau und Auswertung einer Datenbank zur Geschichte des Konzentrationslagers Auschwitz. Frankfurt am Main: Campus Verlag, 2004

which is written by a data analyst involved in the Auschwitz museum database project.

On p.275 he reproduces a breakdown month by month of the religious confessions of the entries in the death books.

Jan 43 - 2,841
Feb 43 - 2,393
March 43 - 873
April 43 - 82
May 43 - 31

Including March and April 1943, a mere 680 Jews received death certificates from March to December 1943, which is 1/3 of the number issued in February 1943 alone.

It's worth noting that there is a sudden spike for Jewish death certificates in the last quarter of 1943 - all of 352 death certificates. Explainable by the establishment of the Theresienstadt family camp, which was a propaganda camp from which correspondence was allowed back to the Theresienstadt ghetto, and which had not been selected at all on arrival, unlike other Jewish transports.

So - are you going to tell me with a straight face that only 680 Jews died in 10 months of 1942 at Auschwitz? The death books aren't a complete record, end of story.

Maybe you can talk to Nessie on my behalf then?

But you're claiming that the room was a morgue full stop, as in operated as a morgue. Nessie and I have both been asking you for evidence of use as a morgue. Which you keep failing to provide.

I'm happy it is acknowledged that this "homicidal" gas chamber actually was used for delousing TOO.

Yet there's no evidence of the Birkenau gas chambers inside the crematoria being used for delousing.

Read: I can't explain this one, even though it makes grammatically way more sense, it conflict with everything I've been taught and got a PhD for.

Your parsing makes no logical sense:

Also please explain to me why DIE has a [sic] next to it on the site of your Holocaust team buddies. If YOUR conventional holocaust theory applies, it should have been DAS alright. If MY theory applies, that the heat of a Vergasungskeller can be used against the frost impact, DIE is perfectly correct as it applies to Frosteinwirkung. If DIE indeed applies to Frosteinwirkung, please explain to me how a gas chamber is going to do anything about frost impact?

this is a pretty silly misreading of

Die Eisenbetondecke des Leichenkellers konnte infolge Frosteinwirkung noch nicht ausgeschalt werden. Die [sic] ist jedoch unbedeutend, da der Vergasungskeller hierfür benützt werden kann.

Firstly, the sic on 'die' is probably down to 'dies' being a better choice of work, as in 'this is however unimportant'. Dies is jedoch is a not uncommon German phrase. So is das ist jedoch. Whereas die ist jedoch is grammatically incorrect. Die x ist jedoch is fine, but German speakers don't normally write the definite article and say 'the is however'. They say 'this is however', or 'that is however', and use das and dies. Or they say 'the x is however' and actually type out the noun.

To say that 'die' refers to Frosteinwirkung isn't in any case relevant, since the Frosteinwirkung has prevented the formwork being removed from LK2. Indeed, the intended 'dies' which was mistyped would refer to the general unfinishedness of LK2 and thus includes the Frosteinwirkung. So the second sentence still stands exactly as before, with the Vergasungskeller being capable of use as a morgue in the current situation, the incompleteness of LK2 due to the formwork not yet being removed due to frost.

Like I could if indeed it was a forgery. People should care since it is key evidence, a criminal trace to allegedly one of the biggest mass murders and your evidence looks like anyone could have tampered with it by handwriting inconvenient items in blank columns. Good evidence for at least the possibility of that, is listing those wire mesh columns in the wrong room.

You've still not presented any evidence of forgery, and your claim that the wire mesh columns are listed in the wrong room is without merit, as I explained in the previous post. The wire mesh columns are listed next to an unnumbered Leichenkeller whose other fittings match the blueprints for LK1. Therefore the wire mesh columns were in LK1.

Claiming that the handwriting was added later makes very little sense, because nobody pointed to the wire mesh columns appearing in writing until 1989 when Pressac published his book. The postwar investigations didn't deal with the issue at all. I don't even recall it coming up at the 1972 trial of Dejaco and Ertl, the architects who designed the crematoria.

The same document with the same annotation was still under wraps in Moscow in its original form, the Auschwitz Museum had been provided with copies of the materials held in Moscow. So any handwriting wasn't added by the Polish museum authorities. It makes zero sense to claim that the Soviets anticipated the interpretation of a French pharmacist, Pressac, twenty, thirty or forty years beforehand.

Thank you for at least explaining more decently, although the fact that this post is edited makes me wonder whether maybe it was also explained a bit less decent.

I could wonder the same about your edited posts but I'm not that childish. What I wrote was hardly indecent, and nothing I have written in this post could be considered indecent.
 
Of course the amount of ash of those few barracks should be dwarfed by the ashes of 250.000 victims, if such a thing exists. I'm just saying that people shouldn't make themselves illusions as that the presence of lots of ashes alone proves anything.

It's known that ash was carted off from the extermination camp sites so even if one could theoretically gather up all the ash and cremains on-site, it wouldn't give you a precise number for how many died there.

However, ash and cremains found on site, i.e. cremains which come from human beings, confirms the other evidence of cremation at the size, on a scale which goes beyond a bit of rubbish-burning since there are substantial ash pits.

Another physical approximation is the size and capacity of the mass graves, whose dimensions generally can be determined. But those dimensions won't in turn tell you absolutely everything about how many died at the camp, because the SS went over to cremating bodies of victims immediately after gassing, so not all the victims were buried. The size of the mass graves is however fundamentally incompatible with a more benign interpretation of the causes of mortality.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom