General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[MG1962]

wow didn't take this thread long to spin into the ocean

For the record headscratcher it was a good article about a man on a very personal mission of discovery. I hope one day the counter arguments to the holocaust will be so much dust as the ruins of these camps are

 

[timhau]

If the barracks were wooden as in the picture, gee, that ash will convince me they burned way more than the original estimate of 250,000 alright.

... because once something has been burned to ash, it's obviously impossible to say what it was before the fire because ash is just ash.

 

[dafydd]

wow didn't take this link long to spin into the ocean

For the record headscratcher it was a good article about a man on a very personal mission of discovery. I hope one day the counter arguments to the holocaust will be so much dust as the ruins of these camps are

True,we have let ourselves be sidetracked by denialist tactics. Back on topic.

 

[headscratcher4]

By 1935, there were eighty separate licensees in Europe manufacturing Mickey Mouse merchandise, the same number as in the US at the time.

I seem to remember from Speer's memoirs that Hitler/Goobles were big Disney/Mickey Mouse fans... AH used to screen Mickey Mouse movies at the Obersalzburg prior to WWII. So, one can assume that there would have been a lot of the stuff about... not that it matters a whit.

 

[dafydd]

... because once something has been burned to ash, it's obviously impossible to say what it was before the fire because ash is just ash.

True, my wife's ashes were indistinguishable from the ashes of her coffin when we scattered them. Deniers seem to think that ashes come with a label attached to every particle.

 

[dafydd]

I seem to remember from Speer's memoirs that Hitler/Goobles were big Disney/Mickey Mouse fans... AH used to screen Mickey Mouse movies at the Obersalzburg prior to WWII. So, one can assume that there would have been a lot of the stuff about... not that it matters a whit.

I'll bet he didn't like this one.

 

[MG1962]

I'll bet he didn't like this one.

I got that as part of a war time compilation years ago. Thats got to be one of the most powerful pieces of animation ever committed to film

 

[1337m4n]

So wait, Holocaust deniers are quoting a guy who survived the Holocaust as proof the Holocaust never happened?

My brain...ow...

 

[Bell]

So wait, Holocaust deniers are quoting a guy who survived the Holocaust as proof the Holocaust never happened?

My brain...ow...

As far as I know, they are quoting this guy to proof no one was killed in the extermination camps.

 

[Border Reiver]

I got that as part of a war time compilation years ago. Thats got to be one of the most powerful pieces of animation ever committed to film

What was the name of that compilation? I've had an interest in WWII propaganda films for a few years but haven't been able to indulge in it for a few years.

 

[Natan]

... because once something has been burned to ash, it's obviously impossible to say what it was before the fire because ash is just ash.

Of course the amount of ash of those few barracks should be dwarfed by the ashes of 250.000 victims, if such a thing exists. I'm just saying that people shouldn't make themselves illusions as that the presence of lots of ashes alone proves anything.

 

[MG1962]

What was the name of that compilation? I've had an interest in WWII propaganda films for a few years but haven't been able to indulge in it for a few years.

http://www.dvdizzy.com/onthefrontlines.html

This article has a review of the contents so you can check how much new material you will be purchasing

 

[MG1962]

I should be the one asking for better evidence for the Holocaust, at least the parts that are highly questionable.

Sure - there are 44,000 pieces of evidence from Nuremberg trial. Once you complete a critique of those, I am sure we will be happy to move onto other sources of information

 

[MG1962]

Of course the amount of ash of those few barracks should be dwarfed by the ashes of 250.000 victims, if such a thing exists. I'm just saying that people shouldn't make themselves illusions as that the presence of lots of ashes alone proves anything.

How much ash was found?

How much ash have been found (excluding victims)

How much ash should have been found (Including victims)

 

[Natan]

How much ash was found?

How much ash have been found (excluding victims)

How much ash should have been found (Including victims)

Now THAT is supposed to be evidence pro or contra, not the mere finding of the reported unspecified amount of ash and some Mickey Mouse item for dramatic effect. So let's wait and see for any reporting of that.

 

[MG1962]

Now THAT is supposed to be evidence pro or contra, not the mere finding of the reported unspecified amount of ash and some Mickey Mouse item for dramatic effect. So let's wait and see for any reporting of that.

This is neither the first site nor the only site to have ash deposits. So what is your answer, pick any site you like. Was there too much, not enough, or just the right amount

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Mickey Mouse has been in existence since 1928 or so. It's just that such a child's item evokes things like throwing babies in the air and catching them on their bayonets.

The archaeologist found a Mickey Mouse watch. That is the evidence that was discovered.

The archaeologist cannot help that you have emotional baggage unrelated to the evidence. Are you suggesting the archaeologist should have lied to make the story more believable for you? Is that how you think evidence should be presented?

 

[Natan]

Uh wut? My original point was to refute the silly nonsense about the Soviets blowing up the Auschwitz crematoria. Not only is this refuted by the fact that there is direct evidence of the SS organising the dismantling and destruction of the Auschwitz crematoria, it is also refuted by the fact that there would be ZERO motive for the Soviets to tamper with sites that could be of immense propaganda value, since they had made great hay out of similar (not identical) facilities at Majdanek.

Since I do not have Danuta Czech's Kalendarium available, I suppose you wouldn't be as kind as to provide that evidence in a more direct form?

The prime evidence of genocide at Majdanek, btw, wasn't the gas chambers. It was the enormous piles of hundreds of thousands of shoes. That's what led to a 1.5 million death toll estimate (which was accurate for all the Reinhard camps, go figure).

90.000 shoes (hundreds of thousand for Auschwitz and Majdanek together) proves nothing as to 1.5 million victims at Majdanek Nick. It doesn't even prove 90.000 deaths. It proves 90.000 or less people lost one or more pairs of shoes to ze evil Nazis.

The point made in the proper scholarly analysis of the death books - as in ALL the entries, fed into a computer database - is that after April 1943 the number of Jews registered in the death books dwindles to practically nothing. Your moronic denier source manages inadvertently to prove this precise point.

Except for the tiny overlooked fact that dwindling is gradual, not supporting the theory of a decision taken at a single point in time to stop registering the deaths of jewish inmates. Those Nazis sure knew how to cook the books.

According to anyone other than deniers who can read German, it means that the gassing cellar can be used as a morgue, temporarily, as I've pointed out about half a dozen times now.

Maybe you can talk to Nessie on my behalf then?

Asked and answered.

I'm happy it is acknowledged that this "homicidal" gas chamber actually was used for delousing TOO.

Your parsing makes zero sense. Dismissed.

Read: I can't explain this one, even though it makes grammatically way more sense, it conflict with everything I've been taught and got a PhD for.

Honestly, who cares? What significance does it have that they're handwritten - are you (gasp) about to make a forgery claim and imply someone else wrote them in after the war instead of a clerk in March 1943? If so, please advance this coherently and identify the forger and the date of forgery.

Like I could if indeed it was a forgery. People should care since it is key evidence, a criminal trace to allegedly one of the biggest mass murders and your evidence looks like anyone could have tampered with it by handwriting inconvenient items in blank columns. Good evidence for at least the possibility of that, is listing those wire mesh columns in the wrong room.

I answered this in a post which has been held up in moderation. If you reexamine the sheet then you'll see that the handover papers for Krema II, with Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung, list

line 1 - Leichenkeller
line 2 - a ditto mark
line 3 - Vorraum

Notice anything? As in the absence of a 1 and 2 AFTER the 'Leichenkeller'?

By contrast, three months later, when Krema III was handed over, line 1 was Leichenkeller 1, written with a 1, and line 2 was Leichenkeller 2, written with a 2.

Thus, the Krema II handover papers has NOT got the Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung in LK2. It's just that we have to identify which of the two UNNUMBERED Leichenkeller is which. Pressac made the point 23 years ago that because of the number of lamps and number of taps, the room with the Drahtnetzeineschiebevorrichtungen is LK1.

What I suspect happened is when surveying the building, the ZBL started in the undressing room, then moved to the gas chamber, then to the Vorraum, and thus listed LK2 'first', which it was, since you enter the basement through the undressing room, not the gas chamber.

Three months later, they wrote up the contents survey slightly differently. There was no Vorschrift dictating that they automatically had to list things in a particular way.

Talking of 'transposition' is really just figurative. Some people's sense of propriety might think that LK1 ought to be listed first. I'll admit that I may even have been influenced by some deniers trying this one on in the past before, but really, that gambit has evaporated completely. Give it up.

Edited by LashL: 

Moderated thread.

Thank you for at least explaining more decently, although the fact that this post is edited makes me wonder whether maybe it was also explained a bit less decent.

 

[Natan]

To preempt a likely wild-ass speculation, Auskleidekeller aka undressing room is not really compatible with a morgue function.

People died in their clothes Nick. They were cremated naked. What happened in between?

 

[MG1962]

The archaeologist found a Mickey Mouse watch. That is the evidence that was discovered.

The archaeologist cannot help that you have emotional baggage unrelated to the evidence. Are you suggesting the archaeologist should have lied to make the story more believable for you? Is that how you think evidence should be presented?

Actually the item I was most surprised about was the gold pin. Given how particular the Germans were of stripping the victims of anything of value, seeing that item overlooked surprised me