Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[000063]

But you are not convinced to the degree of 100 percent certitude, and if you are not convinced to that degree, why not just say so?

Yet when someone asks you the exact same question with regard to other Presidents, you don't answer.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it... It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

--Joseph Goebbels

The Holocaust Denial thread is over here.

Correct. Your silence on this as well as other pertinent questions is deafening. But by your silence, you speak volumes.

So you admit you've been lying about your opponents' positions and are unable to produce evidence of Jay making the claim you attribute to him.

Ah, ah, ah -- fallacy of the False Dilemma.

Odd how you don't actually respond to the non-binary questions.

In your heart, you know I'm right.

In my heart, I know you're a troll.

 

[Ladewig]

I'm always struck by the irony of this quote; the concept of repeating something enough that it's eventually taken as undisputed fact.

The irony in this case? Goebbels never said it, but everyone keeps repeating it, and believing he said it, all the same...

I love it.

The other irony is that it is not anywhere close to being true. Senator Larry Craig repeated his big lie twice a day for a year, and no one believed it. Elements of the right wing keep repeating the lie that President Obama is a Muslim sleeper agent, but it is not taken as undisputed fact (except by kooks, the willfully ignorant, and the tin-foil hat brigade).

 

[cwalner]

I love it.

The other irony is that it is not anywhere close to being true. Senator Larry Craig repeated his big lie twice a day for a year, and no one believed it.

Well, to be fair, that wasn't really a big lie, it was just wide.

 

[JayUtah]

The other irony is that it is not anywhere close to being true. Senator Larry Craig repeated his big lie twice a day for a year, and no one believed it.

As did President Clinton, lest we drive too partisan an argument.

The Machiavellian sentiment of the quote variously attributed to Stalin or some Nazi has a certain appeal. The problem is that those who quote it generally don't see how it all fits together. Conspiracists stop at the "tell a big lie" part, and forget that it doesn't work unless the masses are prevented from getting information independently. Hence the "repress dissent" component.

Nobody is preventing the Birthers from telling their side of the story. In fact it's reported in the mainstream media. The Birthers largely choose to carry out their crusade in the form of public lawsuits, where the record is made available to everyone at public expense, so you can see the Birthers getting crucified in their venue of choice, in the form that the Birthers have chosen to express it. And so nothing prevents the masses from seeing just how desperate and straw-clingy the Birther position has become. Hence the "Big Lie" ploy as an attempt to explain why the masses aren't generally convinced by Birther arguments fails to invoke the other leg of the "Big Lie" argument, the one that shows that dissent is actually being repressed rather than simply revealed as nonsense.

Pointing out that kooks on Internet forums are spewing nonsense and ignorance doesn't count as "repressing dissent." That's just conspiracy theorists having their delusion of grandeur. A better explanation is that our resident conspiracy theorists are factually bankrupt and don't know how to argue a point.

 

[RandFan]

And with an excellent diagram. Did you happen to notice the number of layers in an MRC compressed document???

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=808&pictureid=6498

And how many layers are there in the Obama PDF????

Did you happen to notice that claim was debunked by an Adobe-certified expert.

Expert: No Doubt Obama's Birth Certificate Is Legit

“When you open it in Illustrator it looks like layers, but it doesn’t look like someone built it from scratch. If someone made a fake it wouldn’t look like this,” he said.“Some scanning software is trying to separate the background and the text and splitting element into layers and parts of layers.”

 

[tsig]

I'm sorry, but then one must conclude that you yourself are not totally convinced that the document is authentic. That's OK. Neither is Jay. So that must leave the door open for the possibility even in your own mind, that the document is a fraud.

You're supposed to wait for them to enter the trap before you spring it.

 

[tsig]

In your heart, you know I'm right.

So I should eat my heart out?

 

[tsig]

Irrelevant. The MRC contains only one 1-bit transparent text layer, but Obama's PDF file contains EIGHT 1-bit layers.

EIGHT is enough to prove forgery?

 

[Dcdrac]

more importantly how on earth does having 8 layers denote a forgery?

 

[Alferd_Packer]

In your heart, you know I'm right.

In my guts, I know you're nuts.

 

[tsig]

more importantly how on earth does having 8 layers denote a forgery?

Would nine be fine? Two is true? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Ladewig]

Well, to be fair, that wasn't really a big lie, it was just wide.

I bow to you, cwalner.

In terms of respect, the three levels I use on this board are (in ascending order of respect): well played, I tip my hat, and I bow to you.

 

[Ladewig]

As did President Clinton, lest we drive too partisan an argument..

Oh, I agree that President Clinton is a documented liar. I picked Larry Craig not because he was right wing, but because his lie was so ridiculously unbelievable.

 

[Cleon]

In your heart, you know I'm right.

In my guts, I know you're nuts.

In his liver, he knows he's up the river.

 

[Robert Prey]

Nope.



Nope.

Just admit you don't know the difference between a group and a layer in PDF terms.

Just admit that you are now shuckin' and jivin'.

 

[R.A.F.]

Just admit that you are now shuckin' and jivin'.

I see no post where Jay is anything but completely rational, so just why should he admit to something that is not true?

 

[Arus808]

The others had a documented past. Obama has no past -- all expunged from the record.

A complete and utter lie.

Obama's life has been out in the open for all to see since the 90's

 

[Robert Prey]

Did you happen to notice that claim was debunked by an Adobe-certified expert.

The OCR theory has long been abandoned by serious critics in part because the text within the PDF is not searchable.

 

[Ladewig]

Just admit that you are now shuckin' and jivin'.

A swing and a miss.

.....................
What is the strike count these days?

 

[Arus808]

And the funny thing< Sherrif Joe Arpaio's cold cuts posse say it's "forged" because there isn't enough layers.

so please reconcile that, Robert.


Birthers can't even agree with each on their pet theories.

Birthers - "There are layers! Forgery!!!!"

Cold Cuts Posse - "There are layers!! Forgery cause there should be MORE!!!"