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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Krema I was a different design. 3 x 2 muffle ovens, not 5 x 3 muffle ovens as with Krema II.
Krema IV and V were of different design too. But that indeed seem to be addressed by Pressac, not that convincingly. Pressac argues that:

The throughput of Krematorium I, estimated at 340 per day, is a valid figure based on relatively long practice, but the figures for Krematorien II, III, IV and V are purely theoretical, especially those for IV and V which were calculated by extrapolation from the planned figures for Krematorien II and III.

Theoretical? Weren't Krema II and IV as per Pressac himself transfered in 31 March 31st, 1943, respectively March 22nd, 1943, while the 4756 document is dated June 28th, 1943? There were still no figures for those types of Kremas three months after being transfered?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k2-transfer-deed.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k4-transfer-deed.jpg

Further, I find this:

Cracks in the chimney were already visible on April 3, and by mid-May the crematory was no longer operational. Because Birkenau’s crematories could not possibly have “processed” as many corpses as has been claimed, Meyer concludes that between December 1942 and March 1943 tens of thousands of corpses were cremated there in the open air.
http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/21/3/Weber24.html

If true, this means that June 28th letter is even further unlikely.

And you're quite wrong; Pressac did address this specific issue
Surprisingly somewhat. Didn't expect to be proven wrong in that respect. I've rarely seen anyone remark that the 340 figure is off on denier sites nor did I find this off figure addressed by others.

Also remaining is the issue of one cremation in 15 minutes (25 for Krema I assuming the 340 figure and 24 hour continuous operation) and calculating for continuous 24 hour operation which has no basis in reality. Pressac himself suggest 33 minutes, as we've seen before. Also remaining is that unadjusted, using the same performance for Krema I as the others, the figure would have been 4992, a figure too close to 5000?
 
You really earn your name. It is a strawman argument, I am not (as of yet maybe) claiming that one to be fake. I am claiming the 4756 document to be a fake with three points of evidence, not in any order of importance:

That is an untruth, Simon.

You said in response to:

I told him that at this time 3 double-muffle ovens are in operation, with a capacity of 250 per day. Further, currently under construction are 5 triple muffle ovens with a daily capacity of 800. Today and in the next few days, 2 eight-muffle ovens, each with a daily capacity of 800, will come on consignment, redirected from Mogilew


I take it that 250 cremations per day for 3 double muffle ovens equals 41,6 cremations per muffle per day equals one cremation per muffle in 34 minutes at continuous operation equals physics suspending *fake memo.
Bolding mine.

There are no strawmen in my argument. You said it was fake. Please explain how this is a fake document, and provide evidence proving it to be a fake.
 
So what? Nick, I am expected to believe the reliability of eye witness accounts to the Holocaust when in some of those accounts things are mentioned that cannot even be remotely true.

And here's where you go off the rails, just like every other denier before you. Cherrypicking one witness testimony and ridiculing 1-2 points in an extract of that single testimony doesn't disprove all of the testimonies regarding a specific issue, in this case medical experiments in Block 10 at Auschwitz. It especially doesn't disprove the testimonies if you ignore the documents that exist alongside the testimonies.

Analysing witness testimonies cannot be done in isolation. A classic case would be the witnesses present in Dealey Plaza when Kennedy was shot. It's well known that the overwhelming majority reported hearing three shots. Some however heard two shots, some heard four shots. Sensible people conclude that three shots is the correct answer, independently of the other evidence for three shots being fired. They don't conclude from the fact that some heard five shots that the event never happened, or that five shots were really fired and it was a conspiracy. Because both conclusions would ignore other evidence.

It seems under/overestimations, memory distortions or falsely remembering in the first place in quite common within the Holohoax.

ftfy. Under/overestimations and memory distortions are quite common full stop. We know this from numerous psychological experiments and studies which demonstrate that human memory is not perfect.

In this case: self-reported heights and weights are usually off somewhat; people's ability to assess their own bodies accurately is not as reliable as if it is done by someone else.

But the give-away is the rounded number. People do round down, and it's more plausible that they'd do that and give a seemingly improbably low figure than if they claimed to weigh 33kg.

As to weights under 40 kg, I think 36 has been mentioned for adults. But from there to 30 kg, alleged radiation damage on top of that and living up to 80 years? I am asking myself: do you yourself even believe that personally Nick? It would be nice to have an answer.

Do I even believe what? There are so many stages at which your incredulity can kick in I wonder what you disbelieve here.

This is an extract from a witness statement taken by the Claims Conference regarding medical crimes. As the Claims Conference takes statements it is extremely improbable that they simply made up the quotes for their website when they had plenty of genuine statements to draw upon. The Claims Conference have a demonstrable track record in helping survivors file claims for compensation. Those claims have to be taken to an external authority, the German government, and verified. Some form of supporting evidence is normally required to claim compensation for being a camp survivor; the Claims Conference employs multiple researchers to go through files to look for names and proof.

So there are good reasons to believe that the witness really was at Auschwitz, even without seeing the entire statement which might contain such information as his town of origin, camp number, etc. Moreover: the number of proven fake camp survivors is extremely low in proportion to the total number of witnesses. Certainly MUCH lower than the number of fake Vietnam veterans. Ergo, until given specific evidence of fraud in this specific case, there is no reason to disbelieve the witness was at Auschwitz.

There are no good reasons to disbelieve that medical experiments were conducted in Block 10 at Auschwitz. Nor despite Dogzilla's efforts are there good reasons to disbelieve the story of involuntary ejaculation since this is testified to by other witnesses independent of this one, and is not improbable physiologically.

The only element I discount in this statement is the rounded figure the witness gives about his weight after liberation. There are plenty of other cases where survivors were bedridden after liberation and where they weighed substantially less than their normal weight. If someone was inclined you could compile all the self-reported figures for weight after liberation and graph them; undoubtedly this figure would be on the extreme end of that scale. So while there are good reasons to accept that the witness was underweight in 1945, we are not compelled to accept that he weighed precisely 30kg.

Conversely, we are not compelled to disbelieve the entirety of the witness testimony just because on one detail he gives a figure that is almost certainly incorrect.

as for the age of the witness, you're forgetting that we're dealing with one example of a cohort here; hundreds of prisoners passed through these exeriments and quite a few survived the war. A number died immediately after liberation (I've seen a Soviet autopsy report on a survivor who had testified two days beforehand to her experiences in Block 10, in a file with statements many other witnesses who survived). The subjects were mostly young and originally healthy; if they survived the war and the aftermath then they could reasonably expect to enjoy all the benefits of the increased longevity of the post-1945 world. The longterm effects of X-ray exposure at the doses delivered which allowed for short-term survival would appear to be not as great as you think. Even if there was an increased risk of cancer, then this would still not affect everyone.

...and that brings us back to the usual denier problem of trying to generalise from a sample of one.

Sample-of-one isn't going to convince anyone here to adopt your incredulity, Simon, not unless they already share your delusions. Everyone else can find out about the medical experiments for themselves and review a fair bit of evidence on the web and in print. It won't take long before they learn about Dering vs Uris and realise that the issue was examined in a British court in the 1960s, never mind in other investigations, and that there is a substantial amount of evidence for it. Indeed, it's discussed in thousands of sources. German-speakers can read Hans-Joachim von Lang's recent book Die Frauen von Block 10 which covers a major part of the experiments at Auschwitz.

In the sum total of evidence for medical experiments at Auschwitz, a small extract from a statement on the website of the Claims Conference is an insignificant fraction. It's entirely superfluous to the facticity of medical experiments at Auschwitz; and its character as an anonymised extract on a website makes it useless for writing or research.

The Claims Conference say they will give these testimonies to USHMM and Yad Vashem so they can be used by researchers in the future. Those statements will of course be the full versions with various critical details which are not given on the website. One of those details would be the date on which the statement was taken. These clearly aren't from 2012, rather from an earlier date, but it's entirely unclear whether they are from the 80s, 90s or 2000s. All of which would be an important consideration.

A proper evaluation of the collection of Claims Conference-gathered statements can only be done by looking at the full run of full statements, not by cherrypicking a single extract out of 9 extracts placed on a website.
 
So, JUST the heat from fat and muscle and some organs, we have 399 MJ of total heat energy. And you want to tell me that a body couldn't burn itself?
Meh, if you use a wikipedia definition that "fuel is any material that stores energy that can later be extracted to perform mechanical work in a controlled manner" than anything that has a positive heat of combustion of even 1 milliJoule / kg is a "fuel" alright. The amount of MJ expressed per kg of fuel alone indicates the human body is not something that can be considered a good "fuel". There are other factors too, like sugar has a high enough heat of combustion but doesn't burn that easily. The human body with a lot of water and proteins (nitrogen compounds don't burn so well) just plain sucks as a fuel source.
 
Krema IV and V were of different design too. But that indeed seem to be addressed by Pressac, not that convincingly. Pressac argues that:

The throughput of Krematorium I, estimated at 340 per day, is a valid figure based on relatively long practice, but the figures for Krematorien II, III, IV and V are purely theoretical, especially those for IV and V which were calculated by extrapolation from the planned figures for Krematorien II and III.

Theoretical? Weren't Krema II and IV as per Pressac himself transfered in 31 March 31st, 1943, respectively March 22nd, 1943, while the 4756 document is dated June 28th, 1943? There were still no figures for those types of Kremas three months after being transfered?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k2-transfer-deed.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k4-transfer-deed.jpg

Further, I find this:

Cracks in the chimney were already visible on April 3, and by mid-May the crematory was no longer operational. Because Birkenau’s crematories could not possibly have “processed” as many corpses as has been claimed, Meyer concludes that between December 1942 and March 1943 tens of thousands of corpses were cremated there in the open air.
http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/21/3/Weber24.html

If true, this means that June 28th letter is even further unlikely.

Surprisingly somewhat. Didn't expect to be proven wrong in that respect. I've rarely seen anyone remark that the 340 figure is off on denier sites nor did I find this off figure addressed by others.

Also remaining is the issue of one cremation in 15 minutes (25 for Krema I assuming the 340 figure and 24 hour continuous operation) and calculating for continuous 24 hour operation which has no basis in reality. Pressac himself suggest 33 minutes, as we've seen before. Also remaining is that unadjusted, using the same performance for Krema I as the others, the figure would have been 4992, a figure too close to 5000?

It's interesting that in all of this you flat-out ignore how many bodies actually needed to be cremated in 1943 and 1944. Up to March 1943 victims at Birkenau were first buried then exhumed and cremated on open-air pyres. Around 250,000 bodies were burned that way by the spring of 1943. They had been killed in the Bunkers at Birkenau or died in Birkenau, they weren't going to be carted over to the main camp when the crematorium was out of action for much of the summer of 1942 and had such a small capacity.

Open-air pyres were reactivated twice, firstly in August 1943 when a large influx from Upper East Silesia arrived at the same time as there was only one operational crematoria due to breakdowns, and then in May 1944 for the summer when the Hungarian action and other large scale actions arrived, overwhelming the three crematoria that were operational at that time.

From March 1943 to May 1944, with the blip of August 1943 (dealt with by reactivating pyres), Auschwitz actually required far less cremation capacity than is spelled out in this letter: on average, less than 1,000 per day. This was not distributed absolutely evenly, but the average worked out at less than the stated 'official' capacity of Krema II. And by the autumn, they had two such crematoria working. Thus there are testimonies that the crematoria were used alternately; one crematoria would burn the bodies from an incoming transport while the other was either finishing off the cremation from an incoming transport or burning bodies of prisoners who died in the camp. If lots of transports arrived simultaneously then there were scheduling problems, but never to the point of causing the system to break down from September 1943 to May 1944.

In May 1944, very large numbers of transports arrived, so Kremas IV and V were reactivated, but Krema V went over to open air pyres as its ovens failed, and the old open air pyres were reactivated. This despite the fact that a smooth running of all four crematoria using the 'official' figures would have sufficed to cope with the 1944 influx. Thus whenever the numbers threatened to overload the crematoria, the camp turned to fallback methods.

Theoretically, over the 460 days from July 1 1943 to September 30 1944, using the 'official' figures in the letter of June 28, 1943, the camp could have cremated 2,031,360 bodies. The two large crematoria II and III could have cremated 1,324,800 bodies, while the two less advanced crematoria IV and V on the 'official' figures could have cremated 706,560 bodies. In practice crematoria IV and V were mothballed for much of that period so crematoria II and III did most of the work. Crematorium III was being repaired until September 1943, which cancels out against the fact that Crematorium IV was reactivated from May to October 1944 with working ovens.

In the same time-frame, July 1943 to September 1944, not more than 700,000 people died at Auschwitz. That's because more than 300,000 had died up to July 1943, and there were some 10s of 1000s of deaths in October 1944 and then far fewer after the suspension of gassing.

So we find that the cremation requirement was just over half the 'official' capacity of Kremas II and III. Yet we know that on two occasions, the crematoria were supplemented by open-air pyres; and that Krema IV also functioned for five months in that time-period (when its 'official' capacity would have cremated 117,504 bodies). There was evidently a lot of idle time when the crematoria were not being used to their maximum efficiency, and some time when requirements exceeded capacity, at which point other methods were used.

Indeed, the use of two sets of open-air pyres in the summer of 1944 render virtually all cremation capacity arguments moot, because the ultimate capacity of the pyres was massively greater than the capacity of the crematoria.

The '4756' document is not a forgery. You have not advanced any arguments to explain how it was forged or to prove that it was forged. Such arguments must come from outside the document itself. You have not refuted the point that the Soviets suppressed the document and did not use it in their May 1945 report, because they had estimated a far higher (and unrealistic) cremation capacity. Nor have you explained why the Soviets, who had demonstrable possession of the document, would write about it to themselves, in secret and internally to the NKVD, if it was a forgery. Forgeries get used. The Soviets didn't use it. They passed a copy to the Poles, who first presented it in evidence in 1947, even though the document contradicted the 4M figure claimed by the Poles at that time and subsequently.

Nothing in the provenance of this document suggests forgery.

There are no external signs of forgery, and the document is consistently formatted, and appears where it should in the archival file; and is backed up by a request from Hoess to be informed of the capacity of the crematoria.

Pressac's interpretation, that the document was a piece of internal propaganda to show off the shiny new toys, and gives inflated figures, is plausible. The numbers illuminate the mentality of the SS in the Zentralbauleitung and crematoria administration. As the document is demonstrably not a forgery, the numbers originate from the SS.

There is in fact no reason why the numbers should originate from anyone else but the SS. The Soviets and Poles had a demonstrable interest in raising the numbers to a far higher level than 4756 per day. Nobody else had possession of the document but them; the Soviets had the original and did nothing with it except discuss it in an internal secret memorandum.

The same paper trail of files also contains two documents regarding coke usage in Krema II, based on tests in March 1943. One of the documents miscalculates the numbers and had to be corrected by the second document. That in itself demonstrates that the SS were not actually fussing over the numbers quite as precisely as you think they ought to have.

The fact that there were tests in March 1943 of coke usage as well as witnessed tests of cremation speed (initially slower - the witnesses speak of a 45 minute cycle) in Krema II indicates that the SS tried to confirm cremation capacity for Krema II but then did not do this for Krema IV.

Pressac has pointed out that the 1440 figure is implicit in the original plan for Birkenau in October 1941, when the single new crematorium is meant to burn 60 bodies/hour. In the summer of 1942, Topf expected that Crematorium II would have a capacity of 800/day. Then they learned that the design was 1/3 more efficient. Meanwhile, the Zentralbauleitung at Auschwitz informed Stutthof that the Topf design could burn a body in half an hour. Another of several documents which indicate that the crematoria were intended to have a rapid tempo and high capacity.

Thus, the 1440 figure is not necessarily based on the results of the tests in March 1943. However, we know that witnesses state that the expectation was that 2 bodies would be loaded per muffle every half an hour. This was the target tempo, and could be achieved (in fact exceeded).

When asked by higher authority to come up with figures, the Zentralbauleitung and crematoria administration fudged on Krema IV and derived the capacity mathematically, as Pressac has shown. They probably simply restated the target capacity for Krema II, ignoring whether the rate was precisely achievable or not. And they probably derived the 340 figure from consulting with the crematoria administration. The showpieces were the four new crematoria, they were the ones whose capacity had to be advertised to higher authority.

However, 1440 could easily be exceeded under certain conditions. As one of your co-religionists SnakeTongue so tediously informed us, 'bodies' is not a fixed unit of measurement. Bodies don't all come in the exact same proportions and with the exact same weight. We know, moreover, that the initial tests were done on relatively healthy bodies whereas 'Muselmaenner' were held to burn more slowly.

Each muffle in Crematorium II and III had a volume which was equal to the size of an incinerator from many decades previously that could accommodate 450kg of animal carcasses. There was in principle nothing to stop three bodies fitting in per muffle, if one uses the classic modern adult male with an average weight of 70kg. Yet the corpses of victims among new arrivals would be also disproportionately female, since more men than women were selected for labour. 1940s average weights would tend more towards just over 60kg for men and just over 50kg for women. Children would be much smaller. And there were many children to be burned.

In the autumn of 1943, Auschwitz received an entire transport of children from the Bialystok ghetto who had been shunted to Theresienstadt, kept briefly on ice in connection with a possible prisoner exchange, then shipped to Auschwitz when that fell through. 1,264 children aged between 6 and 12 were killed in a gas chamber and then cremated. There would have been little reason to load each muffle with only 1 or only 2 corpses of children in that age-range. You could easily fit 4-5 in one go.

That's why the documents proving multiple corpse cremation are so important. They confirm the witnesses, who universally report that multiple bodies were inserted per muffle.

The design of the crematoria was not such that the bodies were roasted over open coals, the heat and flame came from above, affecting the entire surface area of the stretcher. A single body cremation would thus waste large amounts of energy. Multiple body cremations lessened that waste of energy, and they also exploited the energy reserves in each corpse. Burning bodies together meant that the energy released from fat, muscle and bones could accelerate the cremation process.

Krema I was slower because it burned almost exclusively male prisoners many of whom had become emaciated as 'Muselmaenner'. Kremas II-III would be faster because they burned a mix of men, women and children killed on arrival, who had not yet become Muselmaenner.

So in practice, the peak capacity of Krema II was significantly higher than 1440/day. It just didn't need to be reached very often.
 
You missed something, Simon.


Doc Terry said:
This isn't evidence for forgery; quite the contrary. A forged document would have rounded everything up neatly and not left a discrepancy. There is no mathematical basis for arriving at 340 so historians conclude that this figure is based on experience and the others reflect a theoretical maximum capacity (not least because of the implicit 24-hour functioning, which is known to be a swift route to a breakdown).

Emphasis mine.
 
Meh, if you use a wikipedia definition that "fuel is any material that stores energy that can later be extracted to perform mechanical work in a controlled manner" than anything that has a positive heat of combustion of even 1 milliJoule / kg is a "fuel" alright. The amount of MJ expressed per kg of fuel alone indicates the human body is not something that can be considered a good "fuel". There are other factors too, like sugar has a high enough heat of combustion but doesn't burn that easily. The human body with a lot of water and proteins (nitrogen compounds don't burn so well) just plain sucks as a fuel source.

Now, where ever did those goal-posts go? I could have sworn I last saw them right by "bodies can't fuel a fire".

Anyone have any idea?
 
Meh, if you use a wikipedia definition that "fuel is any material that stores energy that can later be extracted to perform mechanical work in a controlled manner" than anything that has a positive heat of combustion of even 1 milliJoule / kg is a "fuel" alright.

Yes, this is correct.

The amount of MJ expressed per kg of fuel alone indicates the human body is not something that can be considered a good "fuel".

Incorrect. Based on my estimates and calculations, on average, a human body that weighs 45 kg. has an approximate heat energy of 642 MJ, taking into account that, for instance, nitrogen and other non-combustibles, water content, and the like.


You've got....nothing. Personal incredulity maybe.


There are other factors too, like sugar has a high enough heat of combustion but doesn't burn that easily.

No, correct, it doesn't BURN well, but certainly helps with the combustion process.

The human body with a lot of water and proteins (nitrogen compounds don't burn so well) just plain sucks as a fuel source.

I disagree. The water wouldn't last long, and proteins burn easily. Ever burn a hamburger? Burns pretty easily.

As a PRIMARY fuel source, not a great fuel source. Could on 45 kg. body produce enough heat energy to burn another body? Absolutely. 100%, without a doubt. Would it make a GREAT way to BBQ some burgers? Nope. Would it be a good way to heat a home? Sure. Lots of available heat energy, that releases over a long period of time. So, yes.
 
Further, Kogon was not a historian. He was an anti-Nazi journalist who survived six years in Buchenwald.
Eugen Kogon (February 2, 1903 – December 24, 1987) was a historian and a survivor of the Holocaust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Kogon


First line about Eugen Kogon. Maybe I should stop using wikipedia. It also claims a lot of Holohoax crap to be true. I knew he was a journalist first by the way.



Also, the first edition of his book was published in 1946, while information about the scale of the killings was still emerging.
Nice admission about the unreliability of at least some historical records from a year after the facts. So, did he change it in later editions?
 
Just out of curiosity Simon, in which other contexts has Vergasungskeller ever been used?
Just use Vergasung and freepatentsonline and you'll see plenty of German patents for gassifying coal. Incidentally, besides human bodies, do you know which actual fuel the crematoria used?
 
There are no strawmen in my argument. You said it was fake. Please explain how this is a fake document, and provide evidence proving it to be a fake.
My apologies. I thought you were extrapolating from the 4756 document. I will not argue with it as I would need to look more into it. I won't persist it is fake since other than the ridiculous cremation time I don't have much else. 34 minutes is possible according to the deified Pressac (33 actually, 20 minutes "post combustion"), so I'd lose that argument on this forum. Personally I however believe it to be a fake for just that reason.
 
And here's where you go off the rails, just like every other denier before you. Cherrypicking one witness testimony and ridiculing 1-2 points in an extract of that single testimony doesn't disprove all of the testimonies regarding a specific issue, in this case medical experiments in Block 10 at Auschwitz. It especially doesn't disprove the testimonies if you ignore the documents that exist alongside the testimonies.
Problem for you Nick is that it is more than just a few witness testimonies. There are literally HUNDREDS of "witness testimony" that are LITERALLY good for a good laugh.


Analysing witness testimonies cannot be done in isolation. A classic case would be the witnesses present in Dealey Plaza when Kennedy was shot. It's well known that the overwhelming majority reported hearing three shots. Some however heard two shots, some heard four shots. Sensible people conclude that three shots is the correct answer, independently of the other evidence for three shots being fired.
Sensible people conclude maybe people misremembered or indeed only heard two shots (not loud enough) or maybe indeed even four or up to six shots (echo, acoustics) and are technically correct answers as to what they heard too.


They don't conclude from the fact that some heard five shots that the event never happened, or that five shots were really fired and it was a conspiracy. Because both conclusions would ignore other evidence.
It is a false analogy. That's all I can say.


So there are good reasons to believe that the witness really was at Auschwitz, even without seeing the entire statement which might contain such information as his town of origin, camp number, etc. Moreover: the number of proven fake camp survivors is extremely low in proportion to the total number of witnesses. Certainly MUCH lower than the number of fake Vietnam veterans. Ergo, until given specific evidence of fraud in this specific case, there is no reason to disbelieve the witness was at Auschwitz.
For certainly, some figures would be nice. Problem with the Holohoax is that unlike those fake Vietnam vets, a lot of whom were never there, there are fake Holohoax victims who were ACTUALLY suffering at the camps. Probably that's why they usually get the benefit of the doubt.


The only element I discount in this statement is the rounded figure the witness gives about his weight after liberation. There are plenty of other cases where survivors were bedridden after liberation and where they weighed substantially less than their normal weight. If someone was inclined you could compile all the self-reported figures for weight after liberation and graph them; undoubtedly this figure would be on the extreme end of that scale. So while there are good reasons to accept that the witness was underweight in 1945, we are not compelled to accept that he weighed precisely 30kg.
Make it 40. He lived after that AND serious radiation damage up to at least 80. I know there is at least one person who lived quite long and survived BOTH atomic bombs on Japan, but the number of people subjected to either bomb were tens of thousands so there is a statistical chance (plus I don't think the guy ever weighed remotely near 40 kilos). There are no tens of thousands of victims of such sterilization experiments.

hundreds of prisoners passed through these experiments and quite a few survived the war.
 
Just use Vergasung and freepatentsonline and you'll see plenty of German patents for gassifying coal. Incidentally, besides human bodies, do you know which actual fuel the crematoria used?

I wasn't asking about Vergasung alone, I was specifically asking about Vergasungskeller.
 
Eugen Kogon (February 2, 1903 – December 24, 1987) was a historian and a survivor of the Holocaust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Kogon

First line about Eugen Kogon. Maybe I should stop using wikipedia. It also claims a lot of Holohoax crap to be true. I knew he was a journalist first by the way.

After studying national economy and sociology at university in Munich, Florence and Vienna, Kogon received his doctorate in 1927 in Vienna with a dissertation on the "Corporate State of Fascism" (Faschismus und Korporativstaat). That same year, Kogon got a job as editor of a Catholic magazine, Schönere Zukunft ("Brighter Future") and stayed there till 1937.

*cough*
 
Just use Vergasung and freepatentsonline and you'll see plenty of German patents for gassifying coal. Incidentally, besides human bodies, do you know which actual fuel the crematoria used?

English translation of "vergasung" from German Wikipedia-

"Gasification means:

Vergasen , das Überführen von Flüssigkeiten oder Feststoffen in einen gasförmigen Aggregatzustand Gasification , converting the liquid or solid materials into a gaseous state die Verwendung von (Gift-)Gas zur Tötung von Lebewesen: the use of (poison) gas for the killing of living beings: 2Of course, if you insist on Freepatentsonline as your source it is highly unlikely that you will see reference to gassing humans.
 
Problem for you Nick is that it is more than just a few witness testimonies. There are literally HUNDREDS of "witness testimony" that are LITERALLY good for a good laugh.
And there is a difference between "incorrect" and a "lie". Ironic that deniers try to conflate them when they're so often wrong themselves.

Sensible people conclude maybe people misremembered or indeed only heard two shots (not loud enough) or maybe indeed even four or up to six shots (echo, acoustics) and are technically correct answers as to what they heard too.
You're conflating "what they think they heard", "what they heard", and "what actually happened".

It is a false analogy. That's all I can say.
In other words, you can't actually prove how it's false?

For certainly, some figures would be nice. Problem with the Holohoax is that unlike those fake Vietnam vets, a lot of whom were never there, there are fake Holohoax victims who were ACTUALLY suffering at the camps. Probably that's why they usually get the benefit of the doubt.
Okay. If you want to talk about figures, please provide these hundreds of testimonies that you find so amusing, and explain why. Heck, just two dozen would do. Or one.

Actually, don't bother. Even a hundred people, among a few hundred thousand prisoners, would be only 0.1%. Since we're talking about a group sample size of, oh, millions, you citing "hundreds" of testimonies as "good for a laugh" does not mean that said stories are necessarily false (much less active lies), or that they indicate falsehood on the part of the greater Holocaust narrative (much less active conspiracy).


Make it 40. He lived after that AND serious radiation damage up to at least 80. I know there is at least one person who lived quite long and survived BOTH atomic bombs on Japan, but the number of people subjected to either bomb were tens of thousands so there is a statistical chance (plus I don't think the guy ever weighed remotely near 40 kilos). There are no tens of thousands of victims of such sterilization experiments.

hundreds of prisoners passed through these experiments and quite a few survived the war.

And?

Why did you ignore well over half of Terry's post?

...In the sum total of evidence for medical experiments at Auschwitz, a small extract from a statement on the website of the Claims Conference is an insignificant fraction. It's entirely superfluous to the facticity of medical experiments at Auschwitz; and its character as an anonymised extract on a website makes it useless for writing or research.

... A proper evaluation of the collection of Claims Conference-gathered statements can only be done by looking at the full run of full statements, not by cherrypicking a single extract out of 9 extracts placed on a website.
 
Just out of curiosity Simon, in which other contexts has Vergasungskeller ever been used?
Just use Vergasung and freepatentsonline and you'll see plenty of German patents for gassifying coal. Incidentally, besides human bodies, do you know which actual fuel the crematoria used?

Saying "go look here" is not an answer to the question. Provide examples, or say you're not going to answer.
 
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