General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Hubert Cumberdale]

3, Generally the populations under German control did not starve. However there is a very large exception for the Poles and inhabitants of the Soviet Union whoose rations were deliberately set, by the Germans, at close to starvation levels.

And the Dutch in the winter of 1944/45 as punishment for celebrating the approach of the western allies.

Theres no better example of the depraved nihlism of the nazis than this. They didnt care that the Dutch were a good, solid, empire-keeping, non-bolshevik, non-jewish, non-gypsy, aryan, middle-class nation. They were still going to get starved so nerrr.

 

[Nessie]

Yet when I say not everyone newly arriving was emaciated and hence fits with two in a muffle, I'm the bad guy and I am wrong?

I was responding to Clayton's argument that because there are some photos of healthy looking people and there were some Jewish doctors at some of the camps, they were not as bad as believers try and make them out to be and calling them death camps is wrong.

But of course Clayton is wrong, the point is that Jews arriving at any camp got worse in terms of health, not better, or were killed. And that was not caused by Allied bombing ta the end of the War as Jews had been dying (as per the Nazi plan) since the start of the War, increasingly so as the Nazis thought they were winning.

Re bodies in muffles. It seems to me that reports of gassing operations and numbers involved are potentially exaggerated. That is a common feature of how people with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and their memory. We also do not have written records, as in how many were gassed at Krema II. So there will have to be some guesstimation as to numbers gassed, then cremated or burned in pits outside.

The Denier agenda is to claim it is all rubbish and they use the argument from incredulity too much for my liking. Fact is we do not precisely know how many emaciated bodies can be successfully burned in the Krema, nor what happens with mass pit burnings as described at Birkenau. But there is evidence of both on a very large scale and that was expected. Or else why build so many huge Kremas?

 

[Natan]

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/dachauscrapbook/DachauTrials/Mauthausen05.html
This has testimony from a doctor who said he attended gassings, but doesn't say anything about any doctors climbing the ladder themselves to deliver the Zyklon into the chamber. It doesn't say who actually introduced the gas into the chambers.

Lo and behold. Picture of gas chamber at Hartheim Castle at the bottom. My sight is not so good, does the plaque say Vergasungskeller?

 

[000063]

Do you intend to respond to Doctor Terry's post 5119, Simon? Why did you suddenly decide to respond to a minor detail in a post from over two weeks ago?

 

[triforcharity]

Let me help you:

The human body consists of roughly 62 percent water, 16 percent fat, 16 percent protein, 6 percent minerals and some <1% other stuff.

Energy density of fat: ~30 MJ/kg
Energy density of protein: ~15 MJ/kg

16*30/100 + 16*15/100 = 7,2 MJ/kg

How does that compare?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_of_combustion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

Below ALL fuels except perhaps damp peat. There are other factors than just the number of MJ/kg as to what qualifies a good fuel, but that alone does NOT look good.

You've done the math all wrong. You need to give an average weight of a body before you start. Try again.

Also, your numbers are wrong. Fat is about 37 MJ/kg.

So, if a 100 lb/ 45 kg. body is 16% fat, that means it's about 7.2 kg. of fat. NOW you need to multiply THAT by 37. So, just 7.2 kg. of fat has about 266 MJ. Or, more than gasoline.

Now, go back and try again. (I'll give you a hint: It's more than 500.)

 

[uke2se]

If you make laughable statements of bodies serving as their own fuel, I laugh.

Making yourself look rabidly antisemitic in the process.

Yup, I deny that as well. Those animals served as their own fuel I suppose? Nice picture, proves much.

I'm having a hard time believing you're actually serious. A body can't burn without something else as fuel? At any temperature?

I am a native Dutch speaker, closest language to German. My German may not be that good, but what I know:

English: Gas chamber
Dutch: Gaskamer
German: Gaskammer

Let's try Mauthausen if Dachau is not okay:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-aF8IyCZxQVc/SkK8fBc8LRI/AAAAAAAAAbw/0UNkvOnWYCA/IMGP0621.JPG

I am not seeing any Vergasungskeller there. Conclusion: Vergasungskeller in itself proves NOTHING.

Good thing we don't just have Vergasungskeller by itself. We have a boat-load of other evidence as well.

 

[Belz...]

Nope. I seen to REMEMBER Pressac mentioning 33 minutes plus 20 postcombustion (without much supporting evidence for even that assertion). But nice try, from one hour to halfway there, 33. Still not 15. Try harder.

Try harder what ? How does what you say counter what I said ?

 

[jaydeehess]

Steinbach is such an unjewish yet typical Roma name.

hmmmm, Steinbach, Manitoba,Canada is significantly populated by Mennoites

that oh-so-Jewish sect.

 

[Nick Terry]

When it comes to justifying the original 4 million figures, Holohoaxsters are quick to dismiss Eastern European historians. Hence I did not mention it. I originally also didn't mention Friedman. I don't expect anyone to keep their word and pay up, I merely wanted to point out the false assertion that there is no respectable Western historian using that figure.

But that wasn't Wroclaw's challenge. He stated, quite clearly, that the aim was to find a historian who arrived at a total of 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust basing that number on 4 million dead at Auschwitz.

You're never going to be able to cite anyone who made a calculation of 'Auschwitz - 4 million Jews killed, rest, must have been 2 million, therefore 6 million'.

That's because the 4M figure was always people not Jews.

Philip Friedman presented some fairly detailed calculations regarding losses in Poland, starting with an overall demographic balance - the 'subtraction' method. Then he estimated losses by phase, and then he identified how many non-Polish Jews died in Poland - 1 million - while stating that the rest died in the USSR, Yugoslavia and elsewhere. He used a figure of 5,787,000 for the Europe-wide death toll, from the Institute of Jewish Affairs. And that source doesn't use Auschwitz to arrive at its total at all. It was based on a straight demographic balance.

In fact, Friedman doesn't even mention an Auschwitz death toll in this section. He mentions Auschwitz earlier, but doesn't give a figure. He does for Majdanek, using the high initial figure then saying a very large percentage were Jews. Then more numbers for Treblinka, Chelmno, Belzec, etc. And all that following more numbers regarding shootings and ghettos.

Quite separately to this, Friedman wrote a brochure on Auschwitz, and without checking it I'm sure he used a 4M figure there. For people.

There are many mistakes in Friedman's presentation, but for a first draft there is a lot that stands up today after decades of research. He certainly did a better job than Solzhenitsyn or Conquest on the Gulag and Terror.....

The camp totals in the individual reports in German Crimes in Poland add up to 6.331 million, and they don't even include all the other causes of death being talked about in 1945-46

Auschwitz - 4M people
Majdanek - 360,000
Treblinka - 781,000
Belzec - 600,000
Chelmno - 340,000
Sobibor - 250,000

Those numbers have been reduced to about 2.6 million by historical research. The balance of the Holocaust, about 2.7 million, was being documented and discussed in 1945 - killings in the USSR, the ghettos and much else were certainly being presented in 1945-46 at Nuremberg and in other venues.

The biggest drops have been in precisely those camps - Auschwitz and Majdanek - where it was obvious that Jews and non-Jews were the victims. Because the East Bloc, and many in the west, were uncomfortable with acknowledging Jewish specificity and had to drown the awkward fact of genocide in assertions that all had suffered equally.

But seeing as you're such a fan of Friedman, perhaps you can comment on this section

The Jewish population of Wilno (65,000) paid a heavy tribute in blood, action against them lasting without interruption from June 22 to Sep. 5 (the date of the establishment of the ghetto). Afterwards it was renewed in the middle of October and went on until Christmas Eve.

p.150.

The Germans pretended that they took the Jewish male population for labour, and drove them to a small wayside halt called Ponary 10 km from Wilno on the railway from Wilno to Landwarowo. There they were shot in masses and buried in the ditches dug to contain petrol by the Red Army. From October, the time of the "Cleaning" in the ghetto, onwards women and children were also brought to be killed. This monstrous mass action, which lasted half a year, accounted in the first period after the establishment of the ghetto for the deaths of about 30,000 Jewish victims; and in the second period for those of more than 15,000. (G. Jaszunski, Dos Naje Lebn Nr. 6, M. Balberyszki, Dos Naje Lebn Nr. 9, Sz. Kaczerginski: "Ponary", Archives of the Central Jewish Historical Committee. Records from Wilno.)

and tell us what else we have on Ponary since Friedman wrote his essay in 1946.

For some reason all the other deniers never want to discuss Ponary. Can't think why....

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

.. or how those dastardly jews managed to talk the Romani people into joining in on the conspiracy. I mean, where did Settela Steinbach and her family go, after they were put on the train at Westerbork?

Steinbach is such an unjewish yet typical Roma name.

Aad Wagenaar described a first meeting with Magdalena Rosenberg nee Berger as follows:
"De vrouw heeft een knap en trots gezicht met een huid die gaaf en jeugdig is. In het dikke zwarte haar dat ze in een streng heeft is geen spoor van grijs te zien. Ze draagt een lange donker blauwe blouse met witte noppen die tot over de schoot van haar rok valt. De onderarmen zijn onbedekt en op de linker zie ik een nummer met een z ervoor. Ik zeg op voorzichtige maar ook een beetje schuldige toon dat ik op zoek ben naar Magdalena Berger, die in een woonwagencentrum in Stein woont.
'Zo heet ik.'
Ik schrik en zoek naar woorden. Dan stel ik me voor en vraag of ze die Magdalena Berger is die in 1944 als jong meisje met een trein uit Westerbork naar Auschwitz is gebracht. Nu schrikt zij en ik kan zien dat ze er spijt van heeft dat ze me zojuist heeft binnengelaten." (p. 138)

Does Magdalema Berger have the wrong name for such a tattoo? Unlike the many others you can't account for, she came back and reluctantly told part of the story.

What exactly were you trying to accomplish with your reply to KDLarsen, Simon666?

"Settela, Het meisje heeft haar naam terug" is the title of Aad Wagenaar's book.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

My translation of the passage from Aad Wagenaar's book, quoted in the additional reply to:

"The woman has a proud and handsome face with a skin that is smooth and youthful. There is no trace of grey in the thick black hair she has tied in a pony tail. She wears a long dark blue blouse with white dots, which falls down to below the lap of her skirt. The forearms are exposed and on the left I see a number preceded by a z.
In a cautious tone but also a little guilty I mention that I am looking for a Magdalena Berger, who lives in a caravan site in Stein.
"That's my name."
I'm startled and search for words. Then I introduce myself and ask if she is the Magdalena Berger who in 1944 as a young girl was taken by train from Westerbork to Auschwitz. Now it is her turn to be startled and I can see that she regrets that she just let me in."

 

[catsmate]

Was there a race, religion or nationality that saw a higher percentage of its worldwide population interred?

At the risk of diverting from the smackdown of the deniers that's ongoing, possibly Freemasons. I'm unable to locate a definitive figure for the number of masons in the early forties but at least 85,000 (and perhaps as many as 200,000) died as a result of Nazi persecution.

 

[Dcdrac]

http://www.operationlastchance.org/LITHUANIA_35-32.htm

Aucklander 'was Nazi war criminal'
By ANTHONY HUBBARD

The policeman who hunted for Nazi war criminals in New Zealand reveals for the first time what he found. ANTHONY HUBBARD reports.

The Jews of Minsk "screamed like geese" as they were being shot, according to Jonas Pukas. A Lithuanian who served in a police battalion that massacred thousands
of Jews in 1941 and 1942, Pukas settled in New Zealand after the war.

He had heard the Jews dying, he told Detective Sergeant Wayne Stringer in Auckland in 1992, but he had not seen them. "They shout like geese you know," says the official transcript of the interview.

Pukas made the sound of the birds wailing or crying, the transcript notes. They "fly in air", he said, laughing. "Some of the Jews used to scream like that, like the geese." Stringer, now retired from the police, says this image "has haunted me since that time".

He did not believe Pukas' claim that he neither saw nor took part in the slaughter. The 12th Lithuanian Police Battalion was a notorious murder squad and the evidence of its part in the Holocaust was overwhelming. "If anyone was guilty," Stringer told the Sunday Star-Times, "he was."

 

[Nick Terry]

Ha, utter failure of at least one Holohoaxster to give a reasonable explanation for the utter discrepancy and error in the figures. I am an engineer and the first thing that sticks out to me is the figure for Krema I is off. That allegedly unforged letter was addressed to Hans Kammler, also an engineer by the way. Historians have never noticed that the figure for Krema I is off as they suck at math, but to me it sticks out. Because historians have never noticed, you also cannot Google me a quick answer and your only form of rebuttal is that "I am making stuff up". I am not expecting ANY explanation from ANY of the Holohoaxsters why the figure for Krema I is off because you don't have nor any of your precious historians have ever noticed.

Krema I was a different design. 3 x 2 muffle ovens, not 5 x 3 muffle ovens as with Krema II. It was somewhat less efficient for a number of reasons. The SS had worked with Krema I as a 6 muffle oven for more than a year. 340 was probably the peak performance of Krema I in a single day.

And you're quite wrong; Pressac did address this specific issue:

The throughput of Krematorium I, estimated at 340 per day, is a valid figure based on relatively long practice, but the figures for Krematorien II, III, IV and V are purely theoretical, especially those for IV and V which were calculated by extrapolation from the planned figures for Krematorien II and III

That was 23 years ago. Plenty of people since have read the document, noted the discrepancy, and remembered that Krema I was a different design.

This isn't evidence for forgery; quite the contrary. A forged document would have rounded everything up neatly and not left a discrepancy. There is no mathematical basis for arriving at 340 so historians conclude that this figure is based on experience and the others reflect a theoretical maximum capacity (not least because of the implicit 24-hour functioning, which is known to be a swift route to a breakdown).

 

[Natan]

You've done the math all wrong. You need to give an average weight of a body before you start. Try again.

Also, your numbers are wrong. Fat is about 37 MJ/kg.

So, if a 100 lb/ 45 kg. body is 16% fat, that means it's about 7.2 kg. of fat. NOW you need to multiply THAT by 37. So, just 7.2 kg. of fat has about 266 MJ. Or, more than gasoline.

It's around 33 MJ/kg, I rounded it to give a very crude simple calculation. Protein too was rounded a bit btw. 16% fat could or would be a high estimate for a Holocaust victim even, I used an average figure from an online source. Exact figures are unknown obviously.

MJ/kg for gasoline by the way is given as 47 on wikipedia. Your mistake is in multiplying the amount of MJ/kg of fat times the number of kg of fat and than comparing the amount of total MJ of 266 to the amount of MJ for gasoline of 47 per kg.

Dimensionality mistake.

 

[Natan]

Please supply evidence that the memo is a fake.

You really earn your name. It is a strawman argument, I am not (as of yet maybe) claiming that one to be fake. I am claiming the 4756 document to be a fake with three points of evidence, not in any order of importance:

1. The figure for Krema I is obviously wrong in relation to the others Krema's
2. No supporting evidence for cremation in 15 minutes
3. Assuming 24 hour continuous operation in the memo while such was obviously not the case nor even possible.

lets see

The Apollo conspiracy hinges on the fact that it was a NASA put on job, although 100s of thousands of people were involved in the Apollo project, yet NONE of them has come froward to provide eye withness accounts to back up the claims it was a NASA put on job nor is there any documentary evidence.

The Holocaust on the other hand has:

1. Mountains of documentary and photographic evidence

2. Huge amounts of eye withness accounts , both perpretrators and victims

3. Trial records, the Nuremberg and West German Holocaust trials

So what is more likely by any rational sane standard of judgement to be true.

The holocaust happened there is no hoax nor conspiracy that it has been made up for some nefarious political reason.

The Apollo hoax conspiracy is in itself a hoax.

Those mountains of documentary and photographic evidence concerns a lot of dead bodies and admittedly hundreds of thousands of dead, but to get from there to six million or even 5.1, nice try. As to the eye witness acounts, those are not always reliable and almost always biased for understandable reasons. The camps were not a nice place no matter what. As to the trials, I've already shown of some of the stuff that was at the very least mentioned without even questioning, steam and electrocution chambers. You also know very well that there are at least some issues with testimonies/affidavits such as that of Hoess with respect to the exact number of victims.

Your ability to assess witness testimonies, meanwhile, seems to be nonexistent. Leaving aside the repetition of Dogzilla's pathetic incredulity over involuntary ejaculation, you now point out that the 80 year old witness gives an improbably low figure for his weight. So what? That's precisely the kind of figure which can be under/overestimated, distorted in one's memory, or falsely remembered in the first place. The fact is that people did come out of the camps drastically underweight and some were indeed bedridden for prolonged periods after liberation. Doctors measured weights under 40kg among Belsen survivors. It is cretinously literalist to take that figure and think that ridiculing it can wish away the sum total of testimonies regarding the Block 10 experiments in Auschwitz.

So what? Nick, I am expected to believe the reliability of eye witness accounts to the Holocaust when in some of those accounts things are mentioned that cannot even be remotely true. It seems under/overestimations, memory distortions or falsely remembering in the first place in quite common within the Holohoax. As to weights under 40 kg, I think 36 has been mentioned for adults. But from there to 30 kg, alleged radiation damage on top of that and living up to 80 years? I am asking myself: do you yourself even believe that personally Nick? It would be nice to have an answer.

Since Sander was being interrogated over a written patent, perhaps you should take the original document into consideration. The patent did not suggest that corpses alone would serve as fuel; it envisaged using the undeniable reserves of energy in human corpses as a means of sustaining the cremation of large numbers of bodies on a 'conveyor belt' principle in order to save on fuel; you're going to require another fuel source to start that conveyor belt.

Since I have calculated the energy density of a human body and shown it to be slightly above around that of household waste, which is nowadays sometimes burned generating electricity, I'll grant you that it is maybe technically possible in an advanced industrial oven of large enough scale. Household waste nor human bodies however are "fuel" and further discussion is useless as that conveyer belt crematorium was never built in the first place.

 

[uke2se]

It's around 33 MJ/kg, I rounded it to give a very crude simple calculation.

No, it's around 37 MJ/kg. It says so right there in the link you so kindly provided. 37 MJ/kg which is quite a bit more than that for coal, which is 24 MJ/kg. Are you next going to say that coal can't burn without something else used as fuel?

 

[Moss]

Just out of curiosity Simon, in which other contexts has Vergasungskeller ever been used?

 

[000063]

...Second, do you deny the inflammability of other animals as well, or is it only human bodies that are somehow magically unable to fuel a fire? ...

...Yup, I deny that as well. Those animals served as their own fuel I suppose? Nice picture, proves much....

...

I'm having a hard time believing you're actually serious. A body can't burn without something else as fuel? At any temperature? ...

Simon666, you seemed to have missed this question. Now, you seem to be incredulous of the premise that bodies could burn by themselves, using themselves as fuel. In fact, you have explicitly denied such. Yet when asked again, you suddenly clam up.

You also tried the ol' "assertion by question" trick, where one asks a question which implies something one is unwilling to state openly. In this case "the animals served as their own fuel, I suppose?" which implies that you think the animals did not serve as their own fuel, which you can't know, because you don't know where the image came from. It's the equivalent of "have you stopped beating your wife?" which assumes that the questioned person beats or has beaten their wife.

You also seem to be ignoring Doc Terry's rather substantial posts. I wonder why.

 

[triforcharity]

It's around 33 MJ/kg, I rounded it to give a very crude simple calculation. Protein too was rounded a bit btw. 16% fat could or would be a high estimate for a Holocaust victim even, I used an average figure from an online source. Exact figures are unknown obviously.

MJ/kg for gasoline by the way is given as 47 on wikipedia. Your mistake is in multiplying the amount of MJ/kg of fat times the number of kg of fat and than comparing the amount of total MJ of 266 to the amount of MJ for gasoline of 47 per kg.

Dimensionality mistake.

Your math is still wrong. You're not understanding me. I'll simplify it.

A body that weighs 45 kg (100 lbs)has, on average, 16% fat. So. we know that 16% fat is about 7.2 kg, correct?

So, if a body has 7.2 kg of fat, and fat has a total energy of about 37 MJ/kg, a normal body has about 266 MJ of heat energy available. Correct? Correct.

Now, you add the protein, which is similar in percentage of body makeup, and we have again, about 7.2 kg of protein, or about 133 MJ of heat energy TOTAL for the entire body.

So, JUST the heat from fat and muscle and some organs, we have 399 MJ of total heat energy. And you want to tell me that a body couldn't burn itself?

Now, if you really wanted to you could try to calculate the total heat energy of 1 kg of body total, including fat, protein, and the rest of the contents, and I guarantee that you'd have more heat energy per kg. than gasoline.

Gasoline burns very quickly, releasing less heat energy total than many other products.

Now, want to continue to claim that a body cannot be fuel? I mean, it's an absurdly ignorant claim, and as I have shown, with simple math, you're of course wrong.

Again.