Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[tsig]

You won't get one unless you get your withholds pulled hard and long enough, though.

So Scientology is a variation of the 'pull my finger' joke?

 

[gabeygoat]

So Scientology is a variation of the 'pull my finger' joke?

yeah, but evidently, it's not a "finger"

 

[pakeha]

... It's so obvious that it's boring to argue. The emeter works - but it isn't a lie detector.

Go into the church and get a pinch test.

It's free.

http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com.es/2010/06/scientology-e-meter.html
http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com.es/2010/06/more-on-scientology-e-meter.html

Justinian, that two-part article explains how the pinch test works.
Doesn't that sound like regging to you?

I'm familiar with the pinch test and it is explainable in non-Scientology terms. It's similar to the tests used in the Power Band commercials.

What do you think is happening during the pinch test?

I would be great to get an answer to this from either Fred or Justinian.

Once again:

1) The cost.
2) The regging (high pressure sales)
3) The Sec Checks (not auditing - just stealing your money for no gain)...
The church under Hubbard was different. ...

If E-meters are so effective, why is there a schism in Scientology?
How is it E-meters didn't bring this greed you've mentioned to light?
How is it some Scientologists are accused of being squirrels by others?
How is it the present leaders of Scientology don't meet with your approval, Justinian?

Or as The Dal Lord put it:

How did a young preclear like Miscavige manage to fool all the OT superhumans in the "church" and become its dictator? Shouldn't they have known that he was a bad guy? ...

...http://www.freezonescientology.com/

''iCans exists to promote the broad use of distance training and auditing, metered or unmetered, using the telephone or preferably Skype and a webcam too, in the Indie or FZ community.'' .....

iCans, Justinian?
Just how do they work?

Not likely. I gave someone an introductory session and asked a list of questions on the Emeter designed to find out why he was there. ... I wrote the session up and sent it to the right places.

The right places, Justinian?
So squirrels also hoard files on people?

Finally I understand what a "floating needle" actually refers to.

Ninja'd.
Again!

Fred, what about squirrels using E-meters?
Can a squirrel give a legitimate audit?

 

[dafydd]

I was just being facetious, it seemed a little redundant for you to point out "of course, it's a lie" when people were actively in the middle of pointing out why it was a lie. Apologies.

No apology needed. I repeated it only because we don't seem to be getting though to Justinian.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'm not an electronics wiz but I do know some people that are. I'd love to get hold of one of these things and check out the internals.

You don't need to. You can look at L. Ron Hubbard's patent application, the component list and the schematics which accompanied the patent application.

 

[Multivac]

It's plausible that anybody that knows for sure that there is no god is not very bright.

Why on earth would you make such a bizarre statement?

For some reason Belgium is moving away from even the Catholic church and towards over certainty about the structure of the universe.

Moving away from organised religion is a good thing.

I think you're dangerous.

That sounds like something an SP would say, not a high-toned scientologist.

 

[Multivac]

The bridge starts out with Life Repair.

Most Scientologists never see the one page in the 5 fifteen thousand page encyclopedias worth of information on Scientology that keeps getting mentioned. Satan doesn't get mentioned in the bible much either, but he/she sure gets people's interest..

Satan is of no interest to me, or anyone I know, because he is a fictional character from a rubbish book called the bible.

 

[Multivac]

What better describes Scientology, 100,000 pages or one, perhaps two?

You only really need one sentence.

 

[shuttlt]

Satan is of no interest to me, or anyone I know, because he is a fictional character from a rubbish book called the bible.

There's also the question of whether you can judge the importance of something by the number of words expended on it. From memory there is an aweful lot of begatting in the old testiment, but whether the importance of it matches up to the word count, I don't know. One way of looking at the old testiment would be to say that the commandments are the most important thing, but I bet they don't actually form much of a percentage of the word count. Some important things are easily explained. Why pad them out to 100,000 words just to indicate their significance?

 

[dafydd]

Why on earth would you make such a bizarre statement?






That sounds like something an SP would say, not a high-toned scientologist.

Yes, that statement came from a supposedly super-intelligent OT Clear. Sounds like something from a Bible Belt fundie.

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

Go into the church and get a pinch test.

It's free.

So once again you dodge the issue at hand. Are you intellectually challenged or just dishonest?

You said the emeter was very simple...yet your friend couldn't figure out how to use it so he didn't test it properly. If it's simple to use, he would have tested it properly. Otherwise, it's not simple to use. Or you are saying your friend was a moron...

 

[Justinian2]

Evidence please. And no, anecdotes won't cut it. I'm not an electronics wiz but I do know some people that are. I'd love to get hold of one of these things and check out the internals.

You don't want to know how the Emeter works. What you want to know is how the human body works. What you want to know is why the skin resistance changes.

I've seen what the electrical impulses at the end of nerves look like. The nerves emit short duration pulses. I don't know if these pulses are the source of the movements seen on the Emeter or not. Long term movements that might be caused by sweat or drying skin are ignored.

It is probably an unsatisfying route to explore how the skin changes resistance as the scientific explaination isn't there and since long term changes in resistance are ignored. Most people gain 100% certaintainty in the Emeter by seeing it demonstrated at the Church of Scientology either as a demonstration or as an introductory session. Introductory sessions used to cost only $25.

It's folly to explain what can be so easily demonstrated.

If you really think there's anything to learn by looking at the schematic, then follow this link:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/E-Meter/

It's a simple device.

 

[marplots]

Justinian, is the premise that it can detect specific stuff? What I mean is, suppose I'm thinking of something painful in my past. Would that be distinguished from a recent memory of a pinch or do you have to rely on what someone tells you they were thinking about?

I only ask because it seems like for a lot of stuff, people would just lie about what they were thinking about when the meter jumped.

 

[Justinian2]

So once again you dodge the issue at hand. Are you intellectually challenged or just dishonest?

You said the emeter was very simple...yet your friend couldn't figure out how to use it so he didn't test it properly. If it's simple to use, he would have tested it properly. Otherwise, it's not simple to use. Or you are saying your friend was a moron...

Nobody knows everything. The only morons are those that pretend to know or who offer opinions about subjects in which they are ignorant.

 

[Justinian2]

Justinian, is the premise that it can detect specific stuff? What I mean is, suppose I'm thinking of something painful in my past. Would that be distinguished from a recent memory of a pinch or do you have to rely on what someone tells you they were thinking about?

I only ask because it seems like for a lot of stuff, people would just lie about what they were thinking about when the meter jumped.

The read from the pinch would read once when recalled. It would be a small read.

The read from something painful in your past would get larger with a second recall. Little reads would happen later as various related/associated memories were recalled.

Yes, you can distinguish between reads. In addition to the shape and size of the read, some reads are instantaneous and some are latent.

 

[shuttlt]

Nobody knows everything. The only morons are those that pretend to know or who offer opinions about subjects in which they are ignorant.

Absolutely nobody knows everything.

My view on all this is as follows. How many religions are there? Loads, and while there are certainly themes and claims that one religion might share with another, there are lot of contradictions as well. I really don't need to study all religions, or even one religion, to be able to say that most of them are simply wrong in many fundamental respects. For me, when presented with a believer, the question isn't whether there are any things about the religion that might be true, or whether if God exists, then this religion might not be true. For me, the question is why on Earth should one believe one religion and disbelieve all the others?

One solution to this seems to be to make religion more of a lifestyle choice, and an issue of personal preference, rather than something that is supposed to be about objective truths and the supposed instructions of some divine being, or some secret truth that is universally true.

Basically, I don't think I need to know much about any particular religion to make a judgement. All I have to do is ask the believer, what reason do I have to believe in your religion, rather than <pick any other religion>. What do you think? is that a sensible approach?

If Scientology is more than just a "well if it happens to feel right to you" thing that makes no specific claims to objective truth, then as far as I can see the above argument applies to it. Many Scientologists seem to believe that it is more than that though. All that past life stuff. And the curing serious illnesses through auditing thing.

 

[shuttlt]

The read from the pinch would read once when recalled. It would be a small read.

The read from something painful in your past would get larger with a second recall. Little reads would happen later as various related/associated memories were recalled.

Yes, you can distinguish between reads. In addition to the shape and size of the read, some reads are instantaneous and some are latent.

Is there any proof for this, or is it like dowsing where we just have a bunch of people whose personal experiences have absolutely conviced them, but somehow it never quite works out in a systematic test, or they aren't interested in proving that it works?

 

[Justinian2]

Absolutely nobody knows everything.

My view on all this is as follows. How many religions are there? Loads, and while there are certainly themes and claims that one religion might share with another, there are lot of contradictions as well. I really don't need to study all religions, or even one religion, to be able to say that most of them are simply wrong in many fundamental respects. For me, when presented with a believer, the question isn't whether there are any things about the religion that might be true, or whether if God exists, then this religion might not be true. For me, the question is why on Earth should one believe one religion and disbelieve all the others?

One solution to this seems to be to make religion more of a lifestyle choice, and an issue of personal preference, rather than something that is supposed to be about objective truths and the supposed instructions of some divine being, or some secret truth that is universally true.

Basically, I don't think I need to know much about any particular religion to make a judgement. All I have to do is ask the believer, what reason do I have to believe in your religion, rather than <pick any other religion>. What do you think? is that a sensible approach?

If Scientology is more than just a "well if it happens to feel right to you" thing that makes no specific claims to objective truth, then as far as I can see the above argument applies to it. Many Scientologists seem to believe that it is more than that though. All that past life stuff. And the curing serious illnesses through auditing thing.

Scientology doesn't attack other religions. In fact, Scientology shares basic beliefs with all other religions. Christianity espouses "Love thy neighbor". Scientology maintains that "Love is the greatest power". I think all religions share similar concepts.

Scientology is different in that it combines therapy with basic dogma. When people started going past lives, Dianetics expanded and became the religion which we know as Scientology.

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

Nobody knows everything. The only morons are those that pretend to know or who offer opinions about subjects in which they are ignorant.

1. I'm gonna go ahead and quote my own post that the above was a response to. First, tell me where I said ANYTHING about someone knowing everything, or even implied that I know everything.

2. I asked, how, something can be simple and yet your friend's test didn't work "because he didn't do it right." Could it be that the test didn't work, because the emeter doesn't work?

3. I haven't pretended to know anything, but if you think me a moron, that's okay by me. I never offered an opinion on the emeter; rather I offered an opinion that you had contradicted yourself in your statement/anecdote regarding your friend's test on the emeter.

So once again you dodge the issue at hand. Are you intellectually challenged or just dishonest?

You said the emeter was very simple...yet your friend couldn't figure out how to use it so he didn't test it properly. If it's simple to use, he would have tested it properly. Otherwise, it's not simple to use. Or you are saying your friend was a moron...

 

[elbe]

Is there any proof for this, or is it like dowsing where we just have a bunch of people whose personal experiences have absolutely conviced them, but somehow it never quite works out in a systematic test, or they aren't interested in proving that it works?

It's just a skin galvanometer with extra dials to "tweak" the results.

Honestly, though, you'd probably get a better idea of what someone's thinking just watching their face (which I assume they do anyways but claim it's their little toy). It's not like it's completely useless, but it's hardly the be-all end-all tool scientologists claim it to be. Isn't the first rule in tool use knowing your tools; what they can and can't be used for?