WTC7 and the girder walk-off between column 79 and 44

[Oystein]

...
As you know I am usually legally pedantic about the difference between 'lie' and 'utter untruths'. I think I can legitimately stay with 'lie' until someone invokes 'stupidity' as a defence.

I have on occasion given the twoofer opponent the choice between the conclusions "he lies" and "he's really that damned stupid" - they inevitably decline to chose

Given the ridiculous faith in multiple decimal places of an inch in this thread dealing with a fire ravaged building.....as if 11.0/5.5 is not the same as 12.0/6.0 in the setting of this thread....[qimg]http://conleys.com.au/smilies/nono.gif[/qimg]

Unintended, but well spotted!

Kinda like when the national football^*) champion is in summer training between seasons and they play an exhibition match against some small town or village team from the 6th or 7th leage; final score is typically in the 8:0 - 14:0 range, but the village team will remember to eternity if they scored one goal, or held the champion to less than 6 goals. They'll remember the moment of fame, and less that they still lost the game






*) For you North American lurkers: "Football" here refers to the sport that is actually played with actual feet and an actual ball

 

[ozeco41]

...*) For you North American lurkers: "Football" here refers to the sport that is actually played with actual feet and an actual ball

I refereed the game for ~45 years. #2 daughter still playing at age 41 - so 35 years minus most of two seasons for knee surgery.

...Kinda like when the national football^*) champion is in summer training between seasons and they play an exhibition match against some small town or village team from the 6th or 7th leage; final score is typically in the 8:0 - 14:0 range, but the village team will remember to eternity if they scored one goal, or held the champion to less than 6 goals. They'll remember the moment of fame, and less that they still lost the game ..

Daughter's State League Champion team about 1995 played the local league champions as a 'warm-up' for the 1996 competition. 13-1. The gap between the grade levels is that big.

 

[pgimeno]

The last thing they want is an investigation for the obvious reasons that any competent investigation would dismiss their claims very easily.

I don't think that's right.

They do want a new investigation because when a competent investigation dismisses their claims, they can will cry foul and keep the ball rolling.

Which aligns with the rest of your message regarding going round in circles.

Either way, they Gage wins. The other thread about Gage's interview makes this pretty clear.

 

[ozeco41]

I don't think that's right.

They do want a new investigation because when a competent investigation dismisses their claims, they can will cry foul and keep the ball rolling...

That looks like a viable alternative.

...Which aligns with the rest of your message regarding going round in circles.

Either way, they Gage wins. The other thread about Gage's interview makes this pretty clear.

Yes.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

The last thing they want is an investigation for the obvious reasons that any competent investigation would dismiss their claims very easily.

It's not so easy to see why they come here making silly claims BUT ensuring that discussion goes round in circles and doesn't progress. The only 'valid' goal I can see for Tony's initiative shown in this thread is to get mud thrown at NIST in the hope that NIST will make a PR gesture as they did with Chandlers free fall nonsense. The outcome of that being that whatever NIST 'conceded' can be misrepresented as a significant victory on the same lines as Chandler's free fall non issue was made a discussion point. Bottom line for that tactic however is that they only keep interest going with the 'members of the choir' and the few remaining gullibles out there in the general public.

I've made that claim as to their tactics several times. So far no-one - either side - has suggested any other 'viable' strategy.

'Valid', 'viable' and a few other words in quotes for the obvious reasons.

9/11 truth is dying and we are down into the last remaining dregs of stupidity.

This is just silly nonsense which is either what one might actually call the result of an overactive conspiracy theorist type imagination, or an attempt at trying to protect the real criminals involved in the crime by making it look like those who want a new investigation are somehow involved in a conspiracy themselves. It is rather hard to make a significant number of scientific people look like loony conspiracy theorists, so it appears the fallback approach here is to try and discredit by making it look like a money making scheme.

The reality is I haven't made a dime off of 911 and neither have the other engineers, architects, physicists, and others that I know who are demanding a new investigation into how those buildings actually came down. In fact, my involvement here has cost me money. Nobody paid me to travel to NYC several times over the last several years, including the time I went to the studio which filmed the debate between Ryan Mackey and myself. I traveled on my own dime every time except for once. That was when Fox News sent a limousine driver to pick up Bob McIlvaine and myself in South Jersey, when we appeared on the Geraldo Rivera show in Nov. 2010. That was to ensure we were there and didn't have travel problems. We were not paid for our time and the only thing we got while waiting was free coffee.

Richard Gage is paid about $75,000 per year as the spokesperson for the AE911Truth group and that represents a paycut from what he was making prior to going fulltime with the effort.

Everyone I know who has signed the AE911Truth petition just wants the reality and truth to be told about what actually occurred and we haven't gotten that yet from an official body. Watch the video 911 Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out. None of us were paid for our time there.

 

[Justin39640]

This is just silly nonsense which is either what one might actually call the result of an overactive conspiracy theorist type imagination, or an attempt at trying to protect the real criminals involved in the crime by making it look like those who want a new investigation are somehow involved in a conspiracy themselves. It is rather hard to make a significant number of scientific people look like loony conspiracy theorists, so it appears the fallback approach here is to try and discredit by making it look like a money making scheme.

The reality is I haven't made a dime off of 911 and neither have the other engineers, architects, physicists, and others that I know who are demanding a new investigation into how those buildings actually came down. In fact, my involvement here has cost me money. Nobody paid me to travel to NYC several times over the last several years, including the time I went to the studio which filmed the debate between Ryan Mackey and myself. I traveled on my own dime every time except for once. That was when Fox News sent a limousine driver to pick up Bob McIlvaine and myself in South Jersey, when we appeared on the Geraldo Rivera show in Nov. 2010. That was to ensure we were there and didn't have travel problems. We were not paid for our time and the only thing we got while waiting was free coffee.

Richard Gage is paid about $75,000 per year as the spokesperson for the AE911Truth group and that represents a paycut from what he was making prior to going fulltime with the effort.

Everyone I know who has signed the AE911Truth petition just wants the reality and truth to be told about what actually occurred and we haven't gotten that yet from an official body. Watch the video 911 Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out. None of us were paid for our time there.

Gage takes 75k on paper but how much of his lifestyle gets written off to the rest? Well, travel for one. I bet his vehicle is a company car. Home-office? The list could be endless.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Gage takes 75k on paper but how much of his lifestyle gets written off to the rest? Well, travel for one. I bet his vehicle is a company car. Home-office? The list could be endless.

Get real. The guy looks wore out every time I see him. He just did a 32 city tour in 50 days to present the Experts Speak Out movie. That isn't something most people want to do.

 

[DGM]

Gage takes 75k on paper but how much of his lifestyle gets written off to the rest? Well, travel for one. I bet his vehicle is a company car. Home-office? The list could be endless.

This is off topic but, Gage made 80,688 last year and his total "package" was at least 100K when you consider covered expenses.

(from AE/911 form 990)

BTW Tony, ozeco41 never claimed you have profited from this financially. So I don't know why you went off in this direction.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

This is off topic but, Gage made 80,688 last year and his total "package" was at least 100K when you consider covered expenses.

(from AE/911 form 990)

BTW Tony, ozeco41 never claimed you have profited from this financially. So I don't know why you went off in this direction.

Ozeco41 is claiming that people in AE911Truth don't really want a new investigation, but just want to continue with enough questions about the NIST reports and present official story to keep people interested and an alleged charade going to make money. There are a lot easier ways to make money than what Richard Gage is doing, and then there are all the other technical people like me, who have actually spent their own money and time to help the push for a new investigation. The technical people I know, like David Chandler, Ron Brookman, Jonathan Cole, etc., who have been involved, have been doing it for moral reasons only. So what Ozeco41 is saying is nonsense.

I would actually like to get off this subject and only continue for moral reasons.

 

[DGM]

There are a lot easier ways to make money than what Richard Gage is doing.

Who claimed there wasn't?



Again, we've drifted off-topic.

ETA: Tony, could you please try to finish a post before you hit send? Your "edits" are too often re-writes.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Who claimed there wasn't?



Again, we've drifted off-topic.

ETA: Tony, could you please try to finish a post before you hit send? Your "edits" are too often re-writes.

I wasn't the one who drifted the topic, which is about the NIST alleged girder walk-off between columns 44 and 79 being impossible.

I finished this post before hitting send. It really shouldn't matter as you are quoting what I initially said in your reply anyway and I can't take it back.

 

[BasqueArch]

So Tony…girder walkoff...did you look into:

• Reduced steel strength
• Reduced steel stiffness
• Out of plane bending
• Torsional twist due to temperature gradient
• Lateral Torsional Buckling

Most architects and structural engineers know one thing, you cook a building long enough, and it’s going to collapse. That’s why they put fireproofing on all the structural steel.

Controlled demolition had nothing to with the collapse of Building 7, and no one has ever produced one piece of evidence to support that nutty theory.

Yes, these effects were considered in the analysis work that shows the NIST girder walk-off scenario for the collapse initiation of WTC 7 is impossible.

So Tony...I would love to see your computer model...I can set up and ftp site so you can upload the input file, so I can take a look at it. MHM

So Tony...are you going to give me your input file? MHM

Tony, are you going to show your work for review.

 

[DGM]

I wasn't the one who drifted the topic,

This is true but, you did see the need to escalate the "drift".(in a different direction)

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Tony, are you going to show your work for review.

I told you I am working on it and to be patient as it is time consuming and I am doing it in my spare time. I have a fulltime job.

I worked on it yesterday and generated a video of the lateral forces and girder translation. I am running a model which will include the girder interference with the columns this weekend. If that works correctly I should have full results by next weekend.

Do you have access to an FTP site?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

This is true but, you did see the need to escalate the "drift".(in a different direction)

No, I saw a need to correct a misleading and incorrect notion implying a moral deficit in those of us demanding a new investigation.

 

[BasqueArch]

I told you I am working on it and to be patient as it is time consuming and I am doing it in my spare time. I have a fulltime job.

I worked on it yesterday and generated a video of the lateral forces and girder translation. I am running a model which will include the girder interference with the columns this weekend.

Do you have access to an FTP site?

So you haven't yet proven the girder walk off is impossible, like you claim, or that the seat would have failed. You're still working on it. MHM has volunteered an ftp site, take him up on it.

 

[DGM]

No, I saw a need to correct a misleading and incorrect notion implying a moral deficit in those of us demanding a new investigation.

Maybe we should start a new thread outlining the core demands for a new investigation? So far, everyone I've seen AE make leads to an investigation that could not possibly be "independent".

Unless of course AE does one themselves.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

So you haven't yet proven the girder walk off is impossible, like you claim, or that the seat would have failed. You're still working on it. MHM has volunteered an ftp site, take him up on it.

I have proven the NIST lateral walk-off is impossible. Your notion of an axial walk-off due to girder buckling caused by axial interference is what I am analyzing now. As I said, it is a non-linear analysis and requires much more iterative work on the part of the software and is much more computationally intensive. The number of equations is well over 1,000,000 for this type of analysis.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Maybe we should start a new thread outlining the core demands for a new investigation? So far, everyone I've seen AE make leads to an investigation that could not possibly be "independent".

Unless of course AE does one themselves.

AE911Truth does not have official standing other than rights as citizens to demand propriety, so they can't do the investigation and you should know that.

Actually, I think NIST could do the new investigation, which would show the original investigation to be flawed, if the engineers and scientists were picked randomly by an impartial body.

 

[DGM]

AE911Truth does not have official standing other than rights as citizens to demand propriety, so they can't do the investigation and you should know that.

Actually, I think NIST could do the new investigation, which would show the original investigation to be flawed, if the engineers and scientists were picked randomly by an impartial body.

Would you mind (and participate) if I started a new thread so we can explore these thoughts?

(I don't like call out threads)