General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Dogzilla]

Since all the evidence indicates that 5-6 million Jews living in Europe in WWII are dead, you are of course entirely correct.

'all the evidence' includes things like the Jaeger report, recording the violent deaths of 130,000 Jews at the hands of the Nazis, 2.5% of Hilberg's total of 5.1 million.

Now either you hold to the utterly psychotic view that not one Jew died in WWII because of the Nazis, or you accept that some did, in which case you can give us a guesstimated percentage of the 5-6 million that did die wrongly at the hands of the Nazis. Spit out a hard number. Go on, I dare you.

You want me to give you a guesstimate of what percentage of the 5-6 million Jews that died wrongly at the hands of the Nazis died at the hands of the Nazis? That would be one hundred percent, wouldn't it?

You seem pretty adamant that the 5-6 million Jews that you believe are missing died wrongly at the hands of the Nazis. Unless you hold the utterly psychotic view that not one Jew died during WWII because of WWII or for any other reason, you must accept that the total Jewish death toll exceeds 5-6 million. What is that death toll? How many Jews died in addition to the 5-6 million who died wrongly at the hands of the Nazis? Give us a number. I double dare you.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Another bombast. I do what I please. And I am a good guy amongst a bunch of Holocaust huggers who shrilly defend lies to further the agenda that criticism equates antisemitism.

Well, if you are going to make things up and refuse to answer basic questions about your claims, and act like "everyone knows" is evidence, why on earth would you expect anyone to take you seriously?

My asking you questions about your claims, by the way, is not my defending anything. I will take your reply to be your admission that, like Dogzilla with his hot air about the Jaeger report, you can't support what you wrote.

 

[TSR]

Another bombast. I do what I please. And I am a good guy amongst a bunch of Holocaust huggers who shrilly defend lies to further the agenda that criticism equates antisemitism.

As opposed to simply running away from lies, only to return later spewing them again as if they had not been addressed (in some cases, lying that they had not been) the way that you do?

You have *yet* to document a single such shrill defense of lies by anyone here, nor anyone that has suggested criticism is anti-antisemitism.

And no, the consensus is that your hate clouded judgement of your own worth is out of all proportion to reality.

 

[TSR]

No, that hasn't hit the nerve. But you know what has? I've been going through the cold case missing children files down at Police headquarters and forwarding them all to the DA office so he can prosecute the kids' parents for murder. The DA asks me what new evidence I have uncovered that supports bringing murder charges against the parent of missing children. I ask the DA what the heck he thinks happened to these missing children if they weren't murdered by their parents? The DA asks me if I think the only two outcomes with a missing child case is that the kid shows up alive somewhere or they were murdered by their parents. I tell the DA that that is not what I'm saying at all but since I can't tell him what I am saying, I feel like a doofus.

THAT burns me up!!!

Your analogy misses quite a few steps, such as the parents' confessions, purchase of murder weapons, residue from those weapons' use and letters written bragging of the murder.

A closer analogy to your own situation would be asking to reopen that case, because you don't want to believe the parents are guilty, and when asked what happened to the child instead telling the DA that you haven't bothered to read the file, so don't know and what's more you don't care.

You *should* feel like a doofus, advancing that sort of argument.

 

[truethat]

As well as other children that witnessed the parents murder their children. Seriously WTF?

 

[LemmyCaution]

No, that hasn't hit the nerve. But you know what has? I've been going through the cold case missing children files down at Police headquarters and forwarding them all to the DA office so he can prosecute the kids' parents for murder. The DA asks me what new evidence I have uncovered that supports bringing murder charges against the parent of missing children. I ask the DA what the heck he thinks happened to these missing children if they weren't murdered by their parents? The DA asks me if I think the only two outcomes with a missing child case is that the kid shows up alive somewhere or they were murdered by their parents. I tell the DA that that is not what I'm saying at all but since I can't tell him what I am saying, I feel like a doofus.

THAT burns me up!!!

Somebody is having a great deal of difficulty understanding very simple and basic points (such as the evidence that has long been piled up against his "parents" including documents, photographs of the murders, confessions, accounts of the "siblings" and of bystanders, records that the parents purchased the kinds of guns used in the shootings, a note from one parent to the other saying that the murders were done and how, etc.) - and growing very frustrated with himself, in fact burnt up - although he is projecting his frustration onto others.

 

[Nick Terry]

I have received the following private comment from a reader of this thread:


<snip> Let's walk down memory line for just a moment, shall we?

- The parents' murdering their kids.

- This accent that is not Yiddish but might be Polish but probably comes from speakers of the Eastern European language.

- His refusal to debate that which is not in contention - i.e., Treblinka, Jaeger, etc.

- Holocaustia est omnis divisa in partes tres.

- Cadaver sniffing dogs at Treblinka.

- "Those people were never there."

- His brave supposition that Jews still live in Poland today, despite their not having lived there before WW2.

- Jews in Boca = no Holocaust.

- The multi-form "all Jews" strawman.

- The Jews of Europe never were there yet European Jews managed to go where European Jews are. Relevance.

- The repeated question how many Jews lived in Europe in '42, seemingly for no reason.

- The Haavara Agreement as the negation of the Nazis' announced and implemented policy of emigration.

- The Hoax by Accents.

- All these historians who never make use of trial testimony or documents.

- Asking, after months of avoiding discussion of the Jaeger report, if we have a document not produced for a trial!

- His unfamiliarity with defendants Ott and Braune and with the Einsatzgruppen trial of the NMT - and his ignorance, which follows from not knowing about the trial, of the prosecution's evidence against them.

- Continued purposeful conflation of comic books - well, you get my point - and Hilberg, for example.

- The bizarre decision to start clumsily aping Nick's posts, thinking this turns Nick's points back against him.

- "There is no substantial evidence that we didn't exterminate the Japanese."

- Ignorance that the Jaeger report was used in court cases long after it came to light.

- "Does the Jaeger Report document the shooting of anybody identified as a Communist? Yes or No?" - then utter silence when answered.

I could go on but I am tired <snip>

Edited by Loss Leader: 

Edited for Rules 0, 11 and 12. Speculation about a poster's mental health is almost always off-topic and an attack on the person of the arguer.

 

[Clayton Moore]

A closer analogy to your own situation would be asking to reopen that case, because you don't want to believe the parents are guilty, and when asked what happened to the child instead telling the DA that you haven't bothered to read the file, so don't know and what's more you don't care.

Now tell everyone where are/were all the people with a conscience who worked at the camps or lived nearby the camps who were aware of some of the millions who were allegedly gassed? Do you think they were abducted by aliens?

 

[TSR]

Now tell everyone where are/were all the people with a conscience who worked at the camps or lived nearby the camps who were aware of some of the millions who were allegedly gassed? Do you think they were abducted by aliens?

Document how many working at the camps or living nearby were aware, and tell us why you assume they are missing, and I'll get back to you.

Note I didn't say "make wild claims about how many" but "document how many".

 

[Nonpareil]

Now tell everyone where are/were all the people with a conscience who worked at the camps or lived nearby the camps who were aware of some of the millions who were allegedly gassed? Do you think they were abducted by aliens?

As an addition to TSR's post, suppose that these people existed. Good people nearby the camps who knew that gassing was going on.

What could they do about it? Could they contact the government? Of course not; the government was behind the camps' existence. Could they try and stage a breakout? Against heavily-armed guards, this seems unwise, unlikely to succeed, and would result in a miniscule difference anyway. Leave the country or contact other governments to let them know what was going on? Perhaps they did that. There were, after all, rumors of what was going on prior to the Allied push into Axis territories that proved the existence of the camps.

So here's what my question is to you, Clayton: what difference do you think the answer to your question makes?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Why wouldn't they? Not all Germans were gungho about the Holocaust. Some would be grateful that the war was over and submit to the new authority the same way they submitted to the old one.

So you agree that they had nothing to fear because they weren't involved with exterminating Jewish people?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

This sneaking away from the trains and setting up new communities and forgetting they were Polish--is that what you think happened or is that what you think I think happened?

It is exactly what your crap theory requires. If we have hard evidence from multiple sources that 713,555 people were sent to Treblinka and the Treblinka station master evidences how groups of wagons were shunted up to the death camp for execution.....then how do these people end up in your pretend unknown new Jewish community? Your theory is so crappy that you won't elabourate on any part of it.

How would "migration census records" discredit me?

You are trying to find 5 million people migrating to other communities, not in Poland or Germany. Have you looked at the intakes of all the other countries during this period? If not, why not?

Refugees from Nazi Germany
In a report issued by the State Department, Undersecretary of State Stuart Eizenstat noted that the United States accepted only 21,000 refugees from Europe and did not significantly raise or even fill its restrictive quotas, accepting far fewer Jews per capita than many of the neutral European countries and fewer in absolute terms than Switzerland.

I find it difficult to believe that you can't find any Jews who survived the holocaust or who have older family members who survived the holocaust.

5 million of them? And your first nominated jewish settlement of Treblinka executed Jews is where?

I'm not getting it but let me nominate where I imagine the 713,555 Jewish victims of Treblinka went. I don't know where they went. I don't care where they went. I'm quite confident they were never buried anywhere within the confines of the camp. Your job is to come up with the physical evidence of them having been buried at the camp

The bodies were burnt. The human ash was found. The Commanding officers confessed. The photos are on the Internet. You are pretending to forget this on purpose, using the Clayton Moore "I forgot" technique.

Franz Stangl, Commanding Officer of Treblinka, was finally put on trial in the Second Treblinka Trial by the court of Assizes at Düsseldorf on October 22, 1970, charged with the deaths of 900,000 people at Treblinka. Stangl confessed to the murders, but in his defense, he said, "My conscience is clear. I was simply doing my duty ..."

 

[TSR]

So you agree that they had nothing to fear because they weren't involved with exterminating Jewish people?

Depends on exactly who "they" were and what camp they were stationed at.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Depends on exactly who "they" were and what camp they were stationed at.

Notice that Mr Moore nearly always refuses to give specifics supporting what he asserts - and yesterday said that he doesn't need to, because he makes up his own rules. Which is fine - he doesn't need to, but by playing by these rules, he will convince only himself and not another soul.

Notice too Matthew Ellard's quotation from Stangl on his clean conscience (I know you know this, but for anyone interested in books, so that would mean not our denier friends, Claudia Koonz's book, The Nazi Conscience, is interesting in this regard) and what Stangl was saying after the war about his time in the death camps: where are/were all the people with a conscience who worked at the camps - they were confessing, trying to weasel, in hiding, wishing for the good days to return, serving time, dangling from the ends of ropes, wrestling with what they'd done, blending in and staying quiet, etc. One of them, Oskar Groening, collected stamps and, after hearing a fellow collector trying to deny the Holocaust, he wrote about what he'd learned and seen at Birkenau and later told BILD, "The most gruesome nightmare, that still haunts me today. The gas chambers, the burning of bodies, mountains of corpses." When BILD asked Groening how he lived with this, he replied, "Through repression. In such a situation, a person turns off all the horror around in order to survive it. It's a protective reaction. Otherwise I would have gone crazy."

 

[Belz...]

Tune into MSNBC and listen to Hardball.

The Holocaust enables the warmongering of Zionist neocons. That is why the Holocaust is plastered all over America.

The presence of people who are using the holocaust as an excuse to say something is no evidence that the holocaust is a hoax, or of your other inane statements.

Try again.

 

[Belz...]

No, that hasn't hit the nerve. But you know what has? I've been going through the cold case missing children files down at Police headquarters and forwarding them all to the DA office so he can prosecute the kids' parents for murder. The DA asks me what new evidence I have uncovered that supports bringing murder charges against the parent of missing children. I ask the DA what the heck he thinks happened to these missing children if they weren't murdered by their parents? The DA asks me if I think the only two outcomes with a missing child case is that the kid shows up alive somewhere or they were murdered by their parents. I tell the DA that that is not what I'm saying at all but since I can't tell him what I am saying, I feel like a doofus.

THAT burns me up!!!

When you're done playing that broken violin, would you mind either telling me where those 6 million Jews went, or where is your evidence of a hoax ?

 

[Belz...]

I asked you how it's plastered all over America and you give me a story about a contest happening in Israel and a museum located in Israel? You really don't make much sense.

Notice how he just dodged that one ?

Document how many working at the camps or living nearby were aware, and tell us why you assume they are missing, and I'll get back to you.

Note I didn't say "make wild claims about how many" but "document how many".

Or this one.

 

[LemmyCaution]

or where is your evidence of a hoax ?

Which he needs to pony up, doesn't he, given that there is a great deal of evidence - documents, reports, train records, survivor and bystander testimony, confessions, diaries, excavations, etc. - for Jews in large numbers being taken from places like Warsaw into places like Treblinka - and no witness testimony, no records of departure, no records of arrivals of corresponding numbers of Jews moving on from places like Treblinka to anywhere else. How did all this evidence that demonstrates mass murder come into existence? So Dogzilla needs to explain the existence of all the evidence we do have - and stop saying it's not relevant, he doesn't know, and he doesn't care. If he wants to be taken in any way seriously, that is.

 

[ComfySlippers]

Two things in life annoy me at the moment.

1/ That my lawn mower just broke
2/ Childish people who think the Holocaust is a hoax.

 

[Clayton Moore]

The presence of people who are using the holocaust as an excuse to say something is no evidence that the holocaust is a hoax, or of your other inane statements.

Try again.

What definition of warmongering are you using? The ignore one?