General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[OCaptain]

Your strawmen are exceedingly tedious. I suggest you try wrapping your head around the UN Convention on Genocide and see whether your semantic games can cope with the wording:


I'd also suggest that everyone else simply reposts this article from the UN Convention every time Dogzilla brings up his exceedingly tedious 100% extermination strawman.

Or when Nick Terry responds to a post without knowing what he's talking about.

Are you seriously suggesting that your own viewpoint - disproven time and time again - is still to be preferred over that of trained historians, like our very own Nick and cited scholars?

Why, praytell?

 

[Dcdrac]

Dogzilla Nick Terry is an Historian you are not, you have no credability at all, he does, you have demonstrated time and again a complete lack of analytical skills and knowedge, Nick Terry has time again and again demonstrated he has both analyical skills and in depth knowedge.

On Balance I know who I choose to beleive and it sure as hell is not you.

 

[TSR]

We must protect the integrity of our history, so that we can ensure we don't experience those horrors again. If we forget, we're more likely to have to face it again, if not on a more horrible scale.

cm doesn't want it forgotten, cm wants it to be acceptable.

 

[Belz...]

cm doesn't want it forgotten, cm wants it to be acceptable.

Word.


...in fact, the entire Office suite.

 

[Nessie]

OK, I understand the whole outrage, silence, distraction, or instruction methods of defending the holocaust against it's internal contradictions and flat out impossibilities. But now you've lost me. I'm not sure what you think my position is or what your position is. This sneaking away from the trains and setting up new communities and forgetting they were Polish--is that what you think happened or is that what you think I think happened? You want me to nominate one new Jewish community as a best example--a best example of what? What is the crap theory I made up on the spot? What is an "ex-camp" Jewish community? Is that a community made up entirely of survivors? Is that something you think should exist or is that something you think I think should exist? How would "migration census records" discredit me? Do you think it is impossible to find Jewish holocaust survivors in the United States? And why would you set the cutoff date for finding holocaust survivors in the United States at 1939? There were people holocausted after 1939 who came to the United States even later than that.

What I'm saying is very simple: Jews went where Jews are. If you want to find "missing Jews" look for Jewish communities. Most large cities have them. I find it difficult to believe that you can't find any Jews who survived the holocaust or who have older family members who survived the holocaust.

I'm not getting it but let me nominate where I imagine the 713,555 Jewish victims of Treblinka went. I don't know where they went. I don't care where they went. I'm quite confident they were never buried anywhere within the confines of the camp. Your job is to come up with the physical evidence of them having been buried at the camp (difficult because they weren't) or explain why there isn't any physical evidence (impossible to erase it) or rewrite the holocaust narrative without hundreds of thousands of people being buried at Treblinka (probably your best bet because magical thinking is already a part of the holocaust narrative).

What does that picture show us? Is that bodies in a mass grave? Is that 700,000 bodies in a mass grave?

That there are apparent contradictions and impossibilities to the Holocaust makes it no different from much of our history, particularly during wars. That in itself does not prove anything, though I understand that you desperately want it to so as to disprove the Holocaust. At best it discredits some of the history.

If it is the believer side's job to evidence the number of remains at Treblinka II to the standard you want, it must be your job to evidence all the Jews who survived the War, as there was supposedly no Holocaust and where they went.

That there are hundreds of thousands of missing Jews who went into the Nazi camp system and then disappeared is strong circumstantial evidence that they were killed. We know that because of a system of proof called MAGICOP.

Motive - the Nazis were anti-semitic by word and deed. They mainly despised the Jews and were sure they were the cause of many of Germany's post WWI problems and were a danger to the Aryan race. That gave them motive to behave the way they did.

Ability - they made the camp and ghetto system, they had the resources to move hundreds of thousands of Jews from their homes and the ability to kill them by bullet, work or gas.

Guilty intent - that some, primarily Mischlings were exempted means they had to be exempted from something. That something was clearly being ethnically cleansed as that is what was happening to the majority of Jews. Even if sometimes kind words were said about the Jews by senior Nazis, their actions spoke far loudly that their words.

Identity - we have a lot of documentary evidence, photos, speeches, literature and other evidence to identify those who were involved in the Holocaust.

Conduct after the crime - the attempts to destroy evidence from the whole scale such as the Action Reinhard camps to blowing up Krema II. If these places were as innocent as some suggest, why try and cover up and destroy evidence.

Opportunity - the main opportunity was at the height of Nazi success during WWII. They had control of Germany and the territories captured.

Preparation - from getting the organisation right as Wannsee to construction of a ghetto and camp system, the preparation shows this was ethnic cleansing. It is not as if new towns were being constructed away from Germany and Jews were taken there to live or Jews were being deported by being sent to Palestine on ships, which full of civilians would not have been attacked by the Allies. The preparation was for destruction, not re-settlement.

So under such circumstances, when we have so many missing people, the evidence states they were killed.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post

Yet the big dogs of Team Holocaust, the Zionist neocons, are hip deep in conflicts and terrorism and assassinations all over the planet Earth.

That sounds like an ad hominem. I'm still waiting on that evidence, Clayton.

Tune into MSNBC and listen to Hardball.

The Holocaust enables the warmongering of Zionist neocons. That is why the Holocaust is plastered all over America.

 

[Clayton Moore]

That there are apparent contradictions and impossibilities to the Holocaust makes it no different from much of our history, particularly during wars. That in itself does not prove anything, though I understand that you desperately want it to so as to disprove the Holocaust. At best it discredits some of the history.

If it is the believer side's job to evidence the number of remains at Treblinka II to the standard you want, it must be your job to evidence all the Jews who survived the War, as there was supposedly no Holocaust and where they went.

That there are hundreds of thousands of missing Jews who went into the Nazi camp system and then disappeared is strong circumstantial evidence that they were killed. We know that because of a system of proof called MAGICOP.

Motive - the Nazis were anti-semitic by word and deed. They mainly despised the Jews and were sure they were the cause of many of Germany's post WWI problems and were a danger to the Aryan race. That gave them motive to behave the way they did.

Ability - they made the camp and ghetto system, they had the resources to move hundreds of thousands of Jews from their homes and the ability to kill them by bullet, work or gas.

Guilty intent - that some, primarily Mischlings were exempted means they had to be exempted from something. That something was clearly being ethnically cleansed as that is what was happening to the majority of Jews. Even if sometimes kind words were said about the Jews by senior Nazis, their actions spoke far loudly that their words.

Identity - we have a lot of documentary evidence, photos, speeches, literature and other evidence to identify those who were involved in the Holocaust.

Conduct after the crime - the attempts to destroy evidence from the whole scale such as the Action Reinhard camps to blowing up Krema II. If these places were as innocent as some suggest, why try and cover up and destroy evidence.

Opportunity - the main opportunity was at the height of Nazi success during WWII. They had control of Germany and the territories captured.

Preparation - from getting the organisation right as Wannsee to construction of a ghetto and camp system, the preparation shows this was ethnic cleansing. It is not as if new towns were being constructed away from Germany and Jews were taken there to live or Jews were being deported by being sent to Palestine on ships, which full of civilians would not have been attacked by the Allies. The preparation was for destruction, not re-settlement.

So under such circumstances, when we have so many missing people, the evidence states they were killed.

Yet the German guards remained in the camps when they were liberated?

Why would they do that?

 

[truethat]

Yet the German guards remained in the camps when they were liberated?

Why would they do that?

Why wouldn't they? Not all Germans were gungho about the Holocaust. Some would be grateful that the war was over and submit to the new authority the same way they submitted to the old one.

 

[truethat]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post




Tune into MSNBC and listen to Hardball.

The Holocaust enables the warmongering of Zionist neocons. That is why the Holocaust is plastered all over America.

Where is it "plastered all over America?"

 

[Nessie]

Yet the German guards remained in the camps when they were liberated?

Why would they do that?

Why was Hitler's personal authority needed to make exemptions (primarily Mischlings as opposed to full blooded Jews) from being rounded up and ethnically cleansed?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Where is it "plastered all over America?"

http://oregonfaithreport.com/2012/07/holocaust-museum-makes-change-over-wwii-pope/


http://img.ibtimes.com/www/articles...protected-jewish-vet-ernst-hess-holocaust.htm


http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/re...olicies_toward_jews_and_minorities/index.html

International Business Times‎ - 1 hour ago

Holocaust and the Nazi Era - News - Times Topics - The New York ...
topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/.../index.html
15+ items – News about the Holocaust and the Nazi era. Commentary and ...
Israel's Holocaust Museum Softens Criticism of Pope Pius XII By MYRA ...
Holocaust Survivors' Pageant Taps Into a Conflict in Israel By JODI ...

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-holocaust-museum-alters-wording-pope-pius-xii-192458738.html


'Miss Holocaust Survivor' contest held in Israel | The ... - Yahoo! News
news.yahoo.com/.../miss-holocaust-survivor-contest-held-is...

Eric Pfeiffer

by Eric Pfeiffer - More by Eric Pfeiffer
6 days ago – From the blog The Sideshow: Israel played host to a controversial new beauty pageant, the "Miss Holocaust Survivor" contest, featuring 14 ...

 

[Nessie]

http://oregonfaithreport.com/2012/07/holocaust-museum-makes-change-over-wwii-pope/


http://img.ibtimes.com/www/articles...protected-jewish-vet-ernst-hess-holocaust.htm


http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/re...olicies_toward_jews_and_minorities/index.html

International Business Times‎ - 1 hour ago




http://news.yahoo.com/israel-holocaust-museum-alters-wording-pope-pius-xii-192458738.html


'Miss Holocaust Survivor' contest held in Israel | The ... - Yahoo! News
news.yahoo.com/.../miss-holocaust-survivor-contest-held-is...

Which makes up a minute percentage of news stories on the go at the moment. A google search on news Michael Jackson gets 157,000 results some from just a few hours ago. The same search under news Holocaust finds 42,000 hits, a third of whats going on about Michael Jackson at the moment. And he is not in the news much any more.

Why did Hitler's authority need to be sought to get exemptions from the Holocaust? Why were exemptions primarily granted only to mischlings and not full blooded Jews?

 

[TSR]

Where is it "plastered all over America?"

http://oregonfaithreport.com/2012/07/holocaust-museum-makes-change-over-wwii-pope/


http://img.ibtimes.com/www/articles...protected-jewish-vet-ernst-hess-holocaust.htm


http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/re...olicies_toward_jews_and_minorities/index.html

International Business Times‎ - 1 hour ago

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-holocaust-museum-alters-wording-pope-pius-xii-192458738.html


'Miss Holocaust Survivor' contest held in Israel | The ... - Yahoo! News
news.yahoo.com/.../miss-holocaust-survivor-contest-held-is...

4 Sources.

1 talks about changes at Yad Vashem -- I thought that wasn't allowed?

1 talks about an exemption granted by Hitler to his former CO -- exemption from what, cm, and why did he need it?

1 appears to simply be a count of stories which mention the Holocaust -- but they have published twice as many articles on racism. Had you a point?

And the last -- Miss Holocaust Survivor is a neo-con? Again, what is your point?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Yet the German guards remained in the camps when they were liberated?

Why would they do that?

Mr Moore, perhaps you can tell us. First, you will notice that Matthew Ellard mentioned the Aktion Reinhard camps. Please tell us the number of "German guards" at each of these camps when the Red Army liberated them. Second, please tell us, in the cases of Majdanek and Auschwitz, how many German guards and SS remained, out of how many stationed there, when the Red Army entered the camp and how many left these camps before the Red Army arrived. Also please tell us whether the guards and SS were under any kinds of orders or directives in their action during the last days of the two camps. Finally, for Chelmno, please describe the camp and its conditions and who remained behind, in what status, when the Red Army arrived.

Thank you, LC

 

[truethat]

http://oregonfaithreport.com/2012/07/holocaust-museum-makes-change-over-wwii-pope/


http://img.ibtimes.com/www/articles...protected-jewish-vet-ernst-hess-holocaust.htm


http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/re...olicies_toward_jews_and_minorities/index.html



International Business Times‎ - 1 hour ago




http://news.yahoo.com/israel-holocaust-museum-alters-wording-pope-pius-xii-192458738.html


'Miss Holocaust Survivor' contest held in Israel | The ... - Yahoo! News
news.yahoo.com/.../miss-holocaust-survivor-contest-held-is...

I asked you how it's plastered all over America and you give me a story about a contest happening in Israel and a museum located in Israel? You really don't make much sense.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Mr Moore, perhaps you can tell us. First, you will notice that Matthew Ellard mentioned the Aktion Reinhard camps. Please tell us the number of "German guards" at each of these camps when the Red Army liberated them. Second, please tell us, in the cases of Majdanek and Auschwitz, how many German guards and SS remained, out of how many stationed there, when the Red Army entered the camp and how many left these camps before the Red Army arrived. Also please tell us whether the guards and SS were under any kinds of orders or directives in their action during the last days of the two camps. Finally, for Chelmno, please describe the camp and its conditions and who remained behind, in what status, when the Red Army arrived.

Thank you, LC

Links?

Everyone knows the vicious Russians were reason for the marches.
Perhaps you should try to discuss the camps that guards did remain in.
And maybe discuss the slaughter of guards by the allies?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Links?

Everyone knows the vicious Russians were reason for the marches.
Perhaps you should try to discuss the camps that guards did remain in.
And maybe discuss the slaughter of guards by the allies?

These are interesting charges. But I don't think you understand how this works.

a) You make claim.
b) I ask for details, hoping to find out what you're saying and where you got it (sources).
c) You don't then ask me for links - you provide links, books, document references and quotations, etc.

See. You make something up. It is up to you to support it. Not me.
Now I would like you to detail and support all the statements above as well. Along with detailing and providing support for answers to the questions I've already asked you about this. I should think others would agree with me and be curious for you to spell out your argument and provide support for it.

Note: "Everyone knows" and "it's common knowledge" are not explanations or sources.

 

[Clayton Moore]

These are interesting charges. But I don't think you understand how this works.

a) You make claim.
b) I ask for details, hoping to find out what you're saying and where you got it (sources).
c) You don't then ask me for links - you provide links, books, document references and quotations, etc.

See. You make something up. It is up to you to support it. Not me.
Now I would like you to detail and support all the statements above as well. Along with detailing and providing support for the questions I've already asked you about this. I should think others would agree with me and be curious for you to spell out your argument and provide support for it.

Note: "Everyone knows" and "it's common knowledge" are not explanations or sources.

Another bombast. I do what I please. And I am a good guy amongst a bunch of Holocaust huggers who shrilly defend lies to further the agenda that criticism equates antisemitism.

 

[OCaptain]

Yet the German guards remained in the camps when they were liberated?

Why would they do that?

Why do you think it matters in speaking to the question of whether or not the Holocaust happened??

 

[Dogzilla]

Seems we've hit the nerve with asking where the hell those 6 million non-existent jews went.

No, that hasn't hit the nerve. But you know what has? I've been going through the cold case missing children files down at Police headquarters and forwarding them all to the DA office so he can prosecute the kids' parents for murder. The DA asks me what new evidence I have uncovered that supports bringing murder charges against the parent of missing children. I ask the DA what the heck he thinks happened to these missing children if they weren't murdered by their parents? The DA asks me if I think the only two outcomes with a missing child case is that the kid shows up alive somewhere or they were murdered by their parents. I tell the DA that that is not what I'm saying at all but since I can't tell him what I am saying, I feel like a doofus.

THAT burns me up!!!