LemmyCaution
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Don't be so hard on Dogzilla. How could he ask? He doesn't know the Eastern European language, which these people probably speak.
General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II
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Don't be so hard on Dogzilla. How could he ask? He doesn't know the Eastern European language, which these people probably speak.
Matthew Ellard
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Veronicka Clark is a "revisionist". Veronika Clark set up, the now defunct, Adolf Hitler Research Society and HitlerChristianity.com. (I believe the Iranian IPIS took over the Adolf Hitler Research Society, but dropped it in 2010).
Frenchman Robert Faurisson had called the Holocaust a "fairy tale," while his American colleague Veronica Clark had explained that "the Jews made money in Auschwitz."
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/271uktmd.asp
LemmyCaution
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As I recall, Veronica Clark doesn't even try to use the fig leaf revisionist: she is just a plain old neo-Nazi (this according to a denier who met her). She also wrote Black Nazis - which I have not read, I confess.
Matthew Ellard
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Well I did check out some synagogues and holocaust museums, however I was mostly hunting down post communist oddities.
(My best "gem" was a DVD of 16mm propaganda footage of socialist children railways in East Germany, Hungary and Belorussia. It is very funny. The Hungarian children's railway still exists but they now wear blue scarves and not red scarves)
http://familyfriendly.topbudapest.o...ioneers photo montage Uttorovasut Hungary.png
LemmyCaution
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Did you get to Szobor Park? http://www.mementopark.hu/pages/home/?lang=en
Matthew Ellard
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Yes but it wasn't that great. It only had big statues and I didn't know who most of the Hungarian communists, depicted in stone, were. However there was a fantastic 1970s phone box at the park. If you dialled in a "year" a famous communist speech from that year is sent down the phone. It was silly and fun.
The "museum of terror" was more on the mark. It was in the ex-KGB headquarters in Budapest and had amazing footage of the Germans blowing the beautiful bridges. (Sad week for Budapest) It mostly concentrated on communism and was, frankly, quite factual and not propaganda.
Belz...
Fiend God
Seems we've hit the nerve with asking where the hell those 6 million non-existent jews went.
tsig
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Since we're now just making up stuff: I just got off the phone with all the people you talked to in eastern Europe. I told them "Some guy named Matt told you a few days ago that he heard that Jews didn't die in the war but had instead all moved somewhere further east without telling anybody and without leaving a forwarding address. He asked you if that was true and you said it was not."
Matt has difficulty understanding simple concepts sometimes. What he meant to say is that there are these idiot holocaust deniers in America who say that some Jews who lived in eastern Europe before and during the war moved to other countries after the war. He wants to know if you ever heard about that happening."
Every one of them told me that they had heard of some Jews emigrating to other countries after the war. However, they didn't say anything to me about Romney or Russians.
You said you were going to verify my recovery efforts but you didn't know where you could look for elderly Jews with eastern European accents. I tell you where to look and now you're not even going to bother?
TSR
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More than six million of them? You know that even under the normative view of these events, not all Jews were killed? What you are looking for is survivors, plus the close to 6 million history says were killed. Heck, we'd settle for just the Jews Jäger explicitly said that he'd overseen the killing of. Do any of your europinian speaking sources know where they ended up?
Amazing how, no matter how many times people tell him he has them wrong, he just keeps strawmanning instead of asking them to explain better.
Ahem.
My point being that accents are not reliable for determining descent and origin.
Curious. You have no problem volunteering your opinion on these exact same subjects, but when you are asked to back your claims up, suddenly cry that you don't know anything.
Straw man aside, why do you keep offering your uninformed opinions then? Why do you ignore Clayton's patently uninformed opinions and outright lies?
Matthew Ellard
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No Dogzilla. You are the one making stuff up. I was meeting the local language publishers of a well known American franchised computer magazine. You are aware that people in Eastern Europe speak a variety of languages? They don't print in English.
Funny. You struggle using English. How's your Hrvatski, Uralic and Magyar?
No Dogzilla. I said your argument was complete crap because
1) Polish and German camp victims (ie the 713,555 sent to Treblinka) did not secretly sneak away from the trains and set up new communities elsewhere and forget they were Polish Jews (who escaped from Treblinka)
2) You won't do any research or even nominate one new Jewish community as your "best example" because you know we will simply look at the local communities basic census records and you will look very stupid.
3) You couldn't even set out what evidence you were looking for as you made your crap theory up on the spot to avoid looking very stupid.
4) Senior holocaust deniers won't touch your theory with a stick as they can't find any ex-camp Jewish community. As a junior holocaust denier you haven't even looked at migration census records as this will discredit you on day one.
5) You admit yourself, you don't even know what a Polish accent sounds like, which sort of makes you more useless than your useless posts.
Are you getting it now? Go on...give us a laugh.....nominate where you imagine the 713,555 Jewish victims of Treblinka went when they got off the train.
Was it here?
http://www.vilnaghetto.com/gallery2/d/12541-3/A_heap_of_ashes_in_the_Treblinka_camp.jpg
Robrob
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CT 101. Present uninformed opinion as fact. When caught, complain it's just your opinion - why should you be held to account for it?
OK, I understand the whole outrage, silence, distraction, or instruction methods of defending the holocaust against it's internal contradictions and flat out impossibilities. But now you've lost me. I'm not sure what you think my position is or what your position is. This sneaking away from the trains and setting up new communities and forgetting they were Polish--is that what you think happened or is that what you think I think happened? You want me to nominate one new Jewish community as a best example--a best example of what? What is the crap theory I made up on the spot? What is an "ex-camp" Jewish community? Is that a community made up entirely of survivors? Is that something you think should exist or is that something you think I think should exist? How would "migration census records" discredit me? Do you think it is impossible to find Jewish holocaust survivors in the United States? And why would you set the cutoff date for finding holocaust survivors in the United States at 1939? There were people holocausted after 1939 who came to the United States even later than that.
What I'm saying is very simple: Jews went where Jews are. If you want to find "missing Jews" look for Jewish communities. Most large cities have them. I find it difficult to believe that you can't find any Jews who survived the holocaust or who have older family members who survived the holocaust.
I'm not getting it but let me nominate where I imagine the 713,555 Jewish victims of Treblinka went. I don't know where they went. I don't care where they went. I'm quite confident they were never buried anywhere within the confines of the camp. Your job is to come up with the physical evidence of them having been buried at the camp (difficult because they weren't) or explain why there isn't any physical evidence (impossible to erase it) or rewrite the holocaust narrative without hundreds of thousands of people being buried at Treblinka (probably your best bet because magical thinking is already a part of the holocaust narrative).
What does that picture show us? Is that bodies in a mass grave? Is that 700,000 bodies in a mass grave?
Nick Terry
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Since all the evidence indicates that 5-6 million Jews living in Europe in WWII are dead, you are of course entirely correct.
'all the evidence' includes things like the Jaeger report, recording the violent deaths of 130,000 Jews at the hands of the Nazis, 2.5% of Hilberg's total of 5.1 million.
Now either you hold to the utterly psychotic view that not one Jew died in WWII because of the Nazis, or you accept that some did, in which case you can give us a guesstimated percentage of the 5-6 million that did die wrongly at the hands of the Nazis. Spit out a hard number. Go on, I dare you.
LemmyCaution
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Well, yes, but not so suddenly. It has been the better part of a year he's been sidestepping and irrelvancing and not-contending and pontificating and diverting and doing taxes so as get out of supporting his claims that the Jaeger report was not about anti-Jewish extermination actions but rather a description of a rogue operation or anti-partisan shootings or population resettlement. His own claims, yep, running away from defending them . . . for months . . .
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LemmyCaution
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Doesn't know. Doesn't care. And doesn't understand that an explanation of the history entails explaining all the evidence to reconstruct what happened - and even to be able to explain how we got all the evidence we have. For example, the train records showing transports to but not out of camps, eyewitness accounts, forensic investigations, population records, etc. Why do these things exist, how did they come about, and what do they show?
But Dogzilla doesn't know and doesn't care even to acknowledge all this. He just lets all that evidence sit and ignores it as not relevant, not in contention, in the way of doing his taxes, or whatever. He can't explain it - and he doesn't care.
This is what denial is? The funny part is that Dogzilla is utterly incapable of understanding his own epic failure.
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LemmyCaution
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Well, of course he can. And he never said he couldn't, so stop strawmanning his argument. I realize that strawmanning and know-nothingism are all Dogzilla has left, and I feel for him, but these techniques put his case in a very bad light.
If Matthew Ellard were a kind of super Maxwell's demon of History, he could have found in 1945 something like 1 in 3 of the European Jews who had been alive in the early 1940s. But what he would not have found would have been large numbers of Jews who had been transported to Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, and Chelmno, for example, finding only a couple hundred out of 1,500,000 transported to these places. Nor would he find even 1000s of Jews who had lived in Vilna alive anywhere in the world after the war. Of Jews taken from Vilna to Ponar, he would not find more than a handful surviving the war. Ditto for Warsaw (he would not find even 100 Jews taken from there to Treblinka or Poniatowa alive after the war), Lodz (nor many Jews taken from there to Chelmno . . . ), Riga, Kiev . . . and so on.
Which is the whole point Dogzilla is evading and trying to obfuscate. Dogzilla has shown time and again that he really, really doesn't like the question where Jews ended up, and how we know, nor questions about specific cases like Vilna, Jews shot by Jaeger's squad, etc. And it is obvious to everyone why he doesn't like these questions.
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You almost had a point, but I don't think you meant to make it. We must protect the integrity of our history, so that we can ensure we don't experience those horrors again. If we forget, we're more likely to have to face it again, if not on a more horrible scale.
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