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WTC7 and the girder walk-off between column 79 and 44

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Whom too believe.......NIST and the many many supporting studies from engineers around the world, or Tony and the napkin calculations done with blinders and an agenda..........................what a tough choice.....:rolleyes:

Hey, he also has a spread sheet and a graph of the data on the spread sheet.
 
But intuition is usually limited to the scales and materials one is accustomed to. Few MEs have experience with such tall, fragile, mostly empty structures such as highrises.

I am pretty sure your colleagues haven't studied the structural blueprints and done the math. You may have given them a summary of your bunk, not the real "official" story. Have you tried giving the executive summary of the NIST report on WTC7 to any of your colleagues without comment, and see what they think unaided by you?

Isn't one of his colleagues Gage?
 
I think they should have hooked up to the three large siamese fittings on the outside of WTC 7 and charged the sprinkler system with water from the fireboats in the Hudson river about 400 to 500 yards away. There are photos showing water being used on WTC 6 at 1:30 PM in the afternoon.

We've gone over this before Tony. It would have had zero effect, and there were more pressing issues to deal with.

But, you're welcome to try to tell me otherwise, so I can laugh....
 
All of my engineering colleagues, that I showed the collapse of WTC 7 to and then explained what the present official story for it was, thought the present official story to be ridiculous.

I am pretty sure your colleagues haven't studied the structural blueprints and done the math. You may have given them a summary of your bunk, not the real "official" story. Have you tried giving the executive summary of the NIST report on WTC7 to any of your colleagues without comment, and see what they think unaided by you?

:dl:

For what it's worth, Tony has been appealing to the vacuous authority of his unnamed "colleagues" for his entire stay at the JREF.

Here he is doing it in 2007: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2899445#post2899445

Here in 2010: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5551381#post5551381
... and the reaction when I called him on it: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5551603#post5551603

Here he is still doing it in 2010: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6038922#post6038922

Assuming these people actually exist, I would assume they've long since learned to simply nod deferentially and avoid eye contact whenever he goes on one of his 9/11 rants, rather than argue with him. But you never know. I seem to recall Bobert ran afoul of an entire (small) company in the thrall of Pilots For Truth nonsense. It could happen...

But in any case, it didn't convince anyone then, no reason it should convince anyone now. Even the evasions are recycled at this point.
 
Most aren't aware since this topic has not been covered much in the press.

All of my engineering colleagues, that I showed the collapse of WTC 7 to and then explained what the present official story for it was, thought the present official story to be ridiculous.

BEFORE I read Mr. Mackey's reply, I intended to reply to the above thusly:

"The above is, I think, a lie."

:dl:

For what it's worth, Tony has been appealing to the vacuous authority of his unnamed "colleagues" for his entire stay at the JREF.

Here he is doing it in 2007: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2899445#post2899445

Here in 2010: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5551381#post5551381
... and the reaction when I called him on it: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5551603#post5551603

Here he is still doing it in 2010: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6038922#post6038922

Assuming these people actually exist, I would assume they've long since learned to simply nod deferentially and avoid eye contact whenever he goes on one of his 9/11 rants, rather than argue with him. But you never know. I seem to recall Bobert ran afoul of an entire (small) company in the thrall of Pilots For Truth nonsense. It could happen...

But in any case, it didn't convince anyone then, no reason it should convince anyone now. Even the evasions are recycled at this point.

Tony, you have no "colleagues" that agree with you. You are lying. You made this up of whole cloth. Please stop. It's bad enough that you will never ever get a job as an engineer given the google-ness of this here forum. Drop it and move on with your life.
 
All I can say is that column 79 definitely came down and it couldn't have been due to fire, so some form of artificial demolition device was used to remove it. It doesn't have to be explosives.

Given that even you agree than col 79 was on the brink but just surviving, how could they possibly have known in advance that col 79 would be so compromised by fire that it would later be a suitable candidate for some cover-up engineering calculations and, therefore, have chosen to rig it for demolition?

Or where the fires might start? Or how the wind might be blowing and affecting the spread of the fires? Or that there would be any fires at all?
 
You first typed that it didn't have to be explosives, it could have been through some other means. You changed this again.

You're backing off explosives, so that's out.

The girder fell off the seat because the seat bent or sheared.
The girder sagged more than the calculated 2 inches or so because first it buckled through axial expansion trapped by the two columns and by the eccentric push of the top placed expanding beams. Once the girder buckles it loses its geometry and strength and the deflection is much greater than ~2". This places the load at the heated unstiffened col 79 seat tip, this fails and the girder slides off.


]Detail A below shows the initial conditions as drawn.
[qimg]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg96/scaled.php?server=96&filename=wtc7a.jpg&res=landing[/qimg]
Detail B below shows the girder displacement as calculated by TS without the column 76 girder push. The girder load is at the tip of the cantilevered seat.
[qimg]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg818/scaled.php?server=818&filename=wtc7b.jpg&res=landing[/qimg]

Detail B1 below shows the girder displacement with the 1” column 76 girder push. The girder load is at the tip of the 4 7/16” cantilevered seat.
“The temperature of the girder between Columns 76 and 79 on Floor 13 was sufficient to displace Column 76 to the west and Column 79 to the east.” (NCSTAR 1-9 p527).
[qimg]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg217/scaled.php?server=217&filename=wtc7b1.jpg&res=landing[/qimg]

Detail C shows the sagging girder with a 20” deflection, similar to the beams deflection modeled by NIST. Any girder deflection would place the girder load at the tip of the cantilevered seat.

[qimg]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/wtc7c.jpg/[/qimg][qimg]http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/9341/wtc7c.jpg[/qimg]

Detail D shows the condition at 13th floor Column 79 seat. The 83.7k load was calculated at 100 psf for 837 sf of area at the tip of the 4 7/16” cantilevered seat. It looks like torque would fail the seat in bending or shear and the girder would slide off, but I can’t do the math.

NIST didn’t consider the vertical failure of the seat and its model included a seat stiffener at Col 79 not shown in the plans.
“Since vertical failure of the seat was not considered (Section 11.2.5), the connections at Columns 79 and 81 were both modeled as stiffened seats.” (NCSTAR 1-9 p.558) See “Figure 12-25 Seat connection in global model Column 79. (p. 559)
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/wtc7d.jpg/[/qimg]
[qimg]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg855/scaled.php?server=855&filename=wtc7d.jpg&res=landing[/qimg]

The conclusions that the columns, beams and girders failed by fire were the result of the Fire Dynamics Simulator (FDS), FEA - ANSYS and LS-DYNA models over time.
NCSTAR 1-9 p 536 “ The ANSYS model included nonlinear effects, such as: nonlinear temperature-dependent material properties including thermal expansion, plasticity and creep; nonlinear geometry; and user defined elements that captured the details of temperature dependent connection failures.”

Other forces unaccounted for in the above details leading to failure of this girder or buckling of Column 79:

  • Twisting and failure of the girder at the Critical Twist Angle:
NCSTA 1-9 p487 " When lateral support of the top (compression) flange was lost, floor beams and girders could laterally displace and buckle in a lateral-torsional mode. ...If a beam or girder twisted half of its flange width laterally, it would not be able to support its gravity loads. ….Figure 11-19. Critical Twist Angle in Beams/Girders." The beams framing onto the girders were eccentrically located at the top section of the girder.


  • Lagging differential expansion of the concrete due to the fires on the 12th and 13th floors bearing and laterally pushing on the girder.
  • At Column 79 Floors 6-13 failure of the bolts or welds for the two girder fin supports. Loss of east-west horizontal support of the columns over 8 floors shown. (NCSTAR 1-9A Figure 4-17 p. 81)
The opinion that fires had nothing to do with the collapse of WTC7 is political and false.
[/QUOTE]

Referring to the last drawing.
Wouldn't the seat be bent down as the entire weight of the girder was concentrated on the edge of the seat. As opposed to distributing the load of the girder over its entire surface?
 
We've gone over this before Tony. It would have had zero effect, and there were more pressing issues to deal with.

But, you're welcome to try to tell me otherwise, so I can laugh....

Charging a severely compromised sprinkler system would have accomplished nothing
 
I gave them both sides of the story and links to several videos. They arrived at the conclusion that the present official story for the collapse of WTC 7 is bunk on their own.

Again you are showing your ignorance by thinking a mechanical engineer doesn't understand what slenderness means in reference to structural members such columns and beams.

Of course you can't substantiate these claims, as all your colleagues, without a single exception, must be cowards, right, Tony?

They'll be thrilled to learn that you imply publicly on the internet that they
- are cowards
- update their engineering knowledge from "the press"
- accept youtube as the proper medium to convey complex engineering arguments with grave and far-reaching consequences

I think all of this can safely be dismissed, Tony. You dream this up!

As I write this, only 5 professional engineers with a PE license from your home state of New Jersey had the "courage" (read: "were stupid enough") to sign the ae911t "petition":

Tony, look at the roster of NJ PEs: http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/pels/pelroste.pdf
That's more than 200 pages of engineers, 95 names per page, almost 20,000 total, Tony!

Of these, 5 (five) fell for that bunk! 0.025%, one in fourthousand, Tony! Not one civil or structural engineer among them - there just be thousands of those!

And not a single NJ Prof. Engineer has bothered to put his name under Gage's crap in more than 3 years now, Tony!

Do you have an explanation why NJ engineers just can't be convinced?


Are 99.975% of New Jersey's engineers cowards?
Or wouldn't it be a rather more obvious answer that your arguments just don't convince any engineers at all?
Are you sure you are really talking to NJ engineers? Any at all?
 
Last edited:
erwinl
Referring to the last drawing.
Wouldn't the seat be bent down as the entire weight of the girder was concentrated on the edge of the seat. As opposed to distributing the load of the girder over its entire surface?

Yes it would. the weight is at the edge of the seat and at one end of it. I suspect TS has already calculated this as he wouldn't have passed up the opportunity to prove this wrong.
 
:dl:

For what it's worth, Tony has been appealing to the vacuous authority of his unnamed "colleagues" for his entire stay at the JREF.

...........


Closely followed by:

I can’t rebut your arguments, they're too good. Someone must be paying you to disagree with me.
TS implied this of tfk for one.
 
BEFORE I read Mr. Mackey's reply, I intended to reply to the above thusly:

"The above is, I think, a lie."



Tony, you have no "colleagues" that agree with you. You are lying. You made this up of whole cloth. Please stop. It's bad enough that you will never ever get a job as an engineer given the google-ness of this here forum. Drop it and move on with your life.

No, I did not make it up. You are making unwarranted assumptions.
 
Yes it would. the weight is at the edge of the seat and at one end of it. I suspect TS has already calculated this as he wouldn't have passed up the opportunity to prove this wrong.

I have done the calculation for someone else and it isn't enough. I had sent it in an e-mail and don't have time to find it. I will do the calculation again today and post it here tonight.

Bear in mind that the five beams will keep the girder from buckling in any significant way when it is up against the column faces due to thermal expansion. There will be some shortening but not much and the same thing goes for that due to sag.
 
:dl:

For what it's worth, Tony has been appealing to the vacuous authority of his unnamed "colleagues" for his entire stay at the JREF.

Here he is doing it in 2007: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2899445#post2899445

Here in 2010: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5551381#post5551381
... and the reaction when I called him on it: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5551603#post5551603

Here he is still doing it in 2010: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6038922#post6038922

Assuming these people actually exist, I would assume they've long since learned to simply nod deferentially and avoid eye contact whenever he goes on one of his 9/11 rants, rather than argue with him. But you never know. I seem to recall Bobert ran afoul of an entire (small) company in the thrall of Pilots For Truth nonsense. It could happen...

But in any case, it didn't convince anyone then, no reason it should convince anyone now. Even the evasions are recycled at this point.

It is a real stretch to say I am appealing to authority here. All I am saying is that when others with technical backgrounds and no agenda look at the collapse of WTC 7 in any detail they do not agree with the present official explanation for its collapse.
 
I have done the calculation for someone else and it isn't enough. I had sent it in an e-mail and don't have time to find it. I will do the calculation again today and post it here tonight.

Bear in mind that the five beams will keep the girder from buckling in any significant way when it is up against the column faces due to thermal expansion. There will be some shortening but not much and the same thing goes for that due to sag.

Good. I was right, you had already done the calculations and didn't post them here, because your e-dog ate them. You hope the calculations you will do tonight will prove you right.
 
Of course you can't substantiate these claims, as all your colleagues, without a single exception, must be cowards, right, Tony?

They'll be thrilled to learn that you imply publicly on the internet that they
- are cowards
- update their engineering knowledge from "the press"
- accept youtube as the proper medium to convey complex engineering arguments with grave and far-reaching consequences

I think all of this can safely be dismissed, Tony. You dream this up!

As I write this, only 5 professional engineers with a PE license from your home state of New Jersey had the "courage" (read: "were stupid enough") to sign the ae911t "petition":

Tony, look at the roster of NJ PEs: http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/pels/pelroste.pdf
That's more than 200 pages of engineers, 95 names per page, almost 20,000 total, Tony!

Of these, 5 (five) fell for that bunk! 0.025%, one in fourthousand, Tony! Not one civil or structural engineer among them - there just be thousands of those!

And not a single NJ Prof. Engineer has bothered to put his name under Gage's crap in more than 3 years now, Tony!

Do you have an explanation why NJ engineers just can't be convinced?


Are 99.975% of New Jersey's engineers cowards?
Or wouldn't it be a rather more obvious answer that your arguments just don't convince any engineers at all?
Are you sure you are really talking to NJ engineers? Any at all?

Since Tony ignored this post, I guess the implied answers are:

- Yes, Tony thinks all his colleagues are cowards
- Yes, Tony thinks that his colleagues get their continued education from "the press"
- Yes, Tony believes that YouTube is the appropriate medium to convey complex, high-impact engineering studies
- Yes, Tony believes that his colleagues, too, accept YouTube as the appropriate medium to convey complex, high-impact engineering studies
- Yes, Tony thinks 19,995 out of 20,000 professional engineers in NJ are probably cowards
- Yes, Tony admits that he can't convinc any NJ engineers at all
- No, Tony has totally no idea why none of the 20,000 professinal engineers in New Jersey has believed his crap and bothered to take 5 minutes to fill out an inconsequential form on the interwebz during the last 3 years or more
- No, Tony can't explain how filling out an inconsequential form on the interwebz would get in the way of a competent engineer making his living


Never mind that some of these replies are somewhat contradictory - it's the truther way :D
 
:dl:

For what it's worth, Tony has been appealing to the vacuous authority of his unnamed "colleagues" for his entire stay at the JREF.

Here he is doing it in 2007: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2899445#post2899445

Here in 2010: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5551381#post5551381
... and the reaction when I called him on it: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5551603#post5551603

Here he is still doing it in 2010: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6038922#post6038922

Assuming these people actually exist, I would assume they've long since learned to simply nod deferentially and avoid eye contact whenever he goes on one of his 9/11 rants, rather than argue with him. But you never know. I seem to recall Bobert ran afoul of an entire (small) company in the thrall of Pilots For Truth nonsense. It could happen...

But in any case, it didn't convince anyone then, no reason it should convince anyone now. Even the evasions are recycled at this point.


His 'appeal to his colleagues' is nothing more than the time worn 'appeal to the lurkers,' a tactic favored by woos whenever they're losing the argument.
 
Given that even you agree than col 79 was on the brink but just surviving, how could they possibly have known in advance that col 79 would be so compromised by fire that it would later be a suitable candidate for some cover-up engineering calculations and, therefore, have chosen to rig it for demolition?

Or where the fires might start? Or how the wind might be blowing and affecting the spread of the fires? Or that there would be any fires at all?

The logical conclusion is that "they" set the fires as well as planting the explosives.
 
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