General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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LemmyCaution said:
Jaeger only thought he was shooting them. Jaeger only thought they were Jews. Jaeger thought that the people he described thus "August 29, 41 - Utena and Moletai - 582 Jews, 1,731 Jewesses, 1,469 Jewish children - 3,782" or "Sep. 12, 41 - City of Wilna - 993 Jews, 1670 Jewesses, 771 J child. - 3,334" were actually partisans. Jaeger thought it was a resettlement operation and never saw anyone get shot unless they were Soviet soldiers. Jaeger thought it was collateral damage (which didn't kill Jews because they didn't exist in the first place) or cross fire (which . . . you know . . . ) or natural causes. Jaeger was hallucinating. Jaeger didn't kill 6 million Jews, so he didn't kill any Jews. Besides Jaeger never used a gas chamber, so there was no Holocaust.
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And according to Dogzilla "abracadbra, no Jews,"

The "Herr" Standartenfuhrer killed himself at the wars end for no reason at all, it seems following your post that he must if we follow DZ's thought processes have prolly spent most of the time on his two years and a bit service out of his gourd on fly agaric soaked reindeer urine in the tundra.

Sitting there with a typewriter doing bizarre accounts.

If we follow DZ.

Now lets try and get back to normailty. This way of thinking makes me long for good old Snakey's numbers games.
 
000063 said:
Not to mention the physical evidence, and who knows how much testimony from survivors and Nazis alike.
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A nifty summary of this was today brought to my attention by a very good colleague of mine. The summary concerns just the Treblinka camp and was written in 2004. This summary makes the argument that those accused of mass extermination roles at Treblinka never raised in their defense the favorite current denier claims - lack of human remains, for example - showing "that the claims are meritless and the defendants knew it."

This summary also listed statements from the following witnesses:

- 14 German camp officials or visitors to Treblinka
- 5 Ukrainian camp guards
- 1 Polish railway official
- 6 surviving inmates

In this testimony, everyone assumed the fact of mass murder, along with the exhumation and burning of the corpses of those killed, and no one argued any other purpose for Treblinka or made a claim of inmates being shipped from Treblinka II to another destination.

The summary also mentioned 20 court proceedings that dealt with the Treblinka death camp in some manner, in five countries, over a period of almost fifty years starting in 1951 and noted that "there is no evidence that jurists from five different countries, in the course of at least 20 court proceedings over nearly 50 years, conspired to deliberately fabricate a Treblinka legend or myth based on the lies and fabrications of some hate-filled, vindictive international cabal. Bluntly," the summary concluded, "I see no reason to take any of these claims seriously."

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14260&start=120 (by David Thompson)

We know, of course, of many more testimonies, statements, memoirs, etc. than listed by David Thompson in 2004; I recommend, for example, the manuscript of Oscar Strawczysnki and the statement of Abraham Krzepicki, to name just two.
 
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Indeed Lemmy. I thought exactly the same thing. The liebe partei genossen were just imagining that their little German burgs had become Juden rein.

This is as zany as LGR's rabbitism of which the first rule states:

All Birkenau kremas are bakeries.
 
LemmyCaution said:
A nifty summary of this was today brought to my attention by a very good colleague of mine. The summary concerns just the Treblinka camp and was written in 2004. This summary makes the argument that those accused of mass extermination roles at Treblinka never raised in their defense the favorite current denier claims - lack of human remains, for example - showing "that the claims are meritless and the defendants knew it."

This summary also listed statements from the following witnesses:

- 14 German camp officials or visitors to Treblinka
- 5 Ukrainian camp guards
- 1 Polish railway official
- 6 surviving inmates

In this testimony, everyone assumed the fact of mass murder, along with the exhumation and burning of the corpses of those killed, and no one argued any other purpose for Treblinka or made a claim of inmates being shipped from Treblinka II to another destination.

The summary also mentioned 20 court proceedings that dealt with the Treblinka death camp in some manner, in five countries, over a period of almost fifty years starting in 1951 and noted that "there is no evidence that jurists from five different countries, in the course of at least 20 court proceedings over nearly 50 years, conspired to deliberately fabricate a Treblinka legend or myth based on the lies and fabrications of some hate-filled, vindictive international cabal. Bluntly," the summary concluded, "I see no reason to take any of these claims seriously."

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14260&start=120 (by David Thompson)
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Very succinctly put.
 
Dogzilla said:
3) Those people were never there. They didn't survive the war nor were they exterminated by the Nazis.
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Ah, so they just made up close relatives, fathers, mothers, etc. ? How were the kids of the dead born, exactly ?

You are so desperate to deny the Holocaust that you will erase an entire people from history.

Hey, you know who else tried to do that ?
 
Dogzilla said:
I assume you're asking where they went if they weren't killed by the Nazis for a reason. As I've said, I don't know where they went. I don't know where any individual Jew went after the war. So what? If you have a point to make, make it.
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Er... okay. You're saying they weren't killed by the Nazis, but we have records of them existing before the war, so if you can't tell me where they wen't, how can you maintain that they weren't killed ? If you say the records and testimonies of the Holocaust are false, and we know there is a difference in numbers, you need to explain it, and saying they never existed doesn't work, since we know they existed. How did you not understand that this is what I was getting at ?

On the other hand, you are a holocaust denier, so understanding reality isn't your forte.
 
Moss said:
Is this going to be the "the Nazis either wanted to kill all Jews or they wanted to kill none at all" false dichotomy again?
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It would be either the Nazis wanted to kill all the Jews or they did not want to kill all the Jews true dichotomy. Unfortunately for Team holocaust, the argument is that the Nazis wanted to kill all the Jews except for the Jews they didn't want to kill. But they wanted to kill all the Jews. Trying to make that argument is one of the reasons you work yourself into a dizzy playing whack-a-mole with the facts and why your narrative sounds more and more Ptolemaic with the extermination of the Jews at the center of the universe.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Bingo. Credit Karl Jaeger: the man could count. Tallied about 130,000 Jews his squad executed.
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and that proves gas chambers or the mass graves at the AR camps how? Are you ever going to get around to explaining the relevance of Jaeger?
 
Dogzilla said:
It would be either the Nazis wanted to kill all the Jews or they did not want to kill all the Jews true dichotomy. Unfortunately for Team holocaust, the argument is that the Nazis wanted to kill all the Jews except for the Jews they didn't want to kill. But they wanted to kill all the Jews. Trying to make that argument is one of the reasons you work yourself into a dizzy playing whack-a-mole with the facts and why your narrative sounds more and more Ptolemaic with the extermination of the Jews at the center of the universe.
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Functionalism vs. Intentionalism

EDIT: Never mind the fact that it was a pretty explicit part of the intentions, actions, and statements of a large number of high-level Nazis that they wanted to spare some Jews from immediate murder so that some of them could be worked to death and the surviving remainder only finally eradicated at some unspecified (but unmistakeably intended) point in the future.
 
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ANTPogo said:
Functionalism vs. Intentionalism

EDIT: Never mind the fact that it was a pretty explicit part of the intentions, actions, and statements of a large number of high-level Nazis that they wanted to spare some Jews from immediate murder so they could be worked to death and only finally eradicated at some unspecified (but unmistakeably intended) point in the future.
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Dogzilla has already expounded on this debate, summarizing it as poorly as he summarizes everything else:
These categories are good for giving the illusion of an open debate on the holocaust but they're really not. If you don't know if the decision to kill the Jews was always in place or if it evolved into that due to the exigencies of war, you don't know if there actually was a plan in place to kill all the Jews. Besides, ultimately you guys are all intentionalists anyway. The functionalist says the decision to exterminate the Jews evolved out of the exigencies of the war. But at some point somebody had to make a conscious decision to exterminate the Jews in response to these exigencies of war. Otherwise, there never was a plan to intentionally exterminate the Jews.
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7877776&postcount=8504

The two camps were created to create an illusion - he doesn't say by whom, just that the whole debate had a purpose of making it appear that historians had different views. FWIW I replied to this gibberish here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7878122&postcount=8511 but best I can tell Dogzilla never replied on intentionalism/functionalism.
 
Belz... said:
Er... okay. You're saying they weren't killed by the Nazis, but we have records of them existing before the war, so if you can't tell me where they wen't, how can you maintain that they weren't killed ? If you say the records and testimonies of the Holocaust are false, and we know there is a difference in numbers, you need to explain it, and saying they never existed doesn't work, since we know they existed. How did you not understand that this is what I was getting at ?

On the other hand, you are a holocaust denier, so understanding reality isn't your forte.
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Er...OK. So you're saying that the missing Jews either 1) survived the war or 2) were murdered by the Nazis as part of their plan to exterminate the Jews is a false dichotomy. Yet you believe it is somehow significant that if I don't know where the missing Jews went, then I can't know if they were murdered or not. Since I don't know if they were murdered or not then I should assume they were. If they weren't murdered, what else might have happened to them? Because we've already established that the survivors are alive. It's the missing Jews we're talking about. If these missing Jews were not murdered by the Nazis as part of their plan to exterminate the Jews, what might've happened to them? If you can't tell me, you're saying that murdered or survival are the only two options. And if you're saying that, how is that not a false dichotomy?

If you think it's significant that I can't tell you where the missing Jews went, be aware that I can't tell you where the surviving Jews went either. So are all the Jews dead?
 
Once again Dogzilla thinks his own ignorance is a substitute for an actual coherent argument.

Historians and historiographers know what happened to the Jews, Dogzilla. If you think they're wrong, saying "well, I don't know what happened to them instead" isn't actually a valid counterargument. You have to state your theory, and provide sufficient evidence for why that theory is more correct than the current understanding possessed by those historians and historiographers.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Dogzilla has already expounded on this debate, summarizing it as poorly as he summarizes everything else: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7877776&postcount=8504

The two camps were created to create an illusion - he doesn't say by whom, just that the whole debate had a purpose of making it appear that historians had different views. FWIW I replied to this gibberish here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7878122&postcount=8511 but best I can tell Dogzilla never replied on intentionalism/functionalism.
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You didn't say anything about the false intentionalist/functionalist schools of thought that required a response. Just a stream of consciousness about Kruks and diaries and Pesyes.
 
Pity, because a functionalist, intentionalist discussion would be more interesting than pretending there were no Jews to find a solution for in the first place and then following ALL that entails.

You've met your, "It was dated early September, it was not dated at all," moment Dogzilla.
 
I don't find any authority in anything he Dogzilla writes either, he seems to be more interested in philosophy than in History.
 
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Dogzilla said:
You didn't say anything about the false intentionalist/functionalist schools of thought that required a response. Just a stream of consciousness about Kruks and diaries and Pesyes.
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Gibberish:
These categories are good for giving the illusion of an open debate on the holocaust but they're really not.
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I will be sending this on to Kershaw. Perhaps he will have a thought worthy of the response of He Who Doesn't Know Where Jews Wound Up and Doesn't Care - because they weren't, he is now telling us, there in the first place. Sigh, anyway, ANTPogo now knows, if he didn't recall, where the trail of cookie crumbs signifying the Thoughts of Dogzilla on Intentionalism leads: nowhere.
 
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Dogzilla said:
I don't know where any individual Jew went after the war. So what?
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So what? This is a remarkable admission from someone who thinks he has something to say about the Holocaust. It is, as ANTPogo noted in another context, nothing but a sign of your ignorance. Oh, that's right, you don't care, and they weren't there in the first place. So - go do something you know about and are good at: Gilligan's Island must be in reruns somewhere.

Note: There are many interesting accounts of what happened to survivors in the last days of the war and afterwards, life stories good for stream of consciousness about - not Kruk, he didn't make it, the Nazis had him murdered in Lagedi, Estonia, the day before the Red Army arrived - but about Shmerke Kaczerginski, Avram Sutzkever, Mendel Balberyszski, Rachel Margolis, Abba Kovner, Mark Dworzecki, Oscar Strawczynski, Hersh Wasser, Hermann Langbein, Primo Levi, Victor Klemperer . . . and . . . er, you'd have to care, I would guess.
 
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