General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Clayton Moore]

No wonder you don't know what on in them.

Huh?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Try to think it out, Clayton.

And, by the way, all you have to do to learn how Jews incarcerated, attacked, and put under penalty of death by the Nazis felt about them is . . . oh sorry, I almost suggested for you to read some books.

 

[Robrob]

So who do I hate?

The Jewish people of the day who I say would have surely reacted with rage or eventual rage if they witnessed or knew of atrocities against their children?


Seems you people hold them in disdain by saying they wouldn't.

Since the beginning of time the most hated people in the world have been people who harm children.

Argument from Ignorance.

Same sort of drivel you regularly hear from Monday Morning Quarterbacks following a school shooting.

"Why didn't they just charge him, he couldn't kill them all?"

 

[Border Reiver]

So who do I hate?

The Jewish people of the day who I say would have surely reacted with rage or eventual rage if they witnessed or knew of atrocities against their children?


Seems you people hold them in disdain by saying they wouldn't.

Since the beginning of time the most hated people in the world have been people who harm children.

Which is why rational people hold a special contempt and hatred for the perpetrators of the Holocaust.

And a great deal of sympathy for the victims.

 

[Robrob]

Which is why rational people hold a special contempt and hatred for the perpetrators of the Holocaust.

As well as their apologists.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Which is why rational people hold a special contempt and hatred for the perpetrators of the Holocaust.

And a great deal of sympathy for the victims.

No. It's because they are told and believe lies.

Not unlike the "noble lie" tactic of Leo Strauss and his students.

 

[Corsair 115]

No. It's because they are told and believe lies.

Yes, "lies" told by Germans themselves, with German records, documents, and archives, researched by Germans, and put into books and research papers written by Germans and published by German printing houses and universities.

Perhaps you can square that circle someday as to why Germany itself is not ground zero for Holocaust denial but is instead, even today, publishing papers, articles, and books testifying to the reality of the Holocaust and why the country does not deny it.

 

[TSR]

So who do I hate?

Quite obviously Jews, among others.

The Jewish people of the day who I say would have surely reacted with rage or eventual rage if they witnessed or knew of atrocities against their children?

And some of them did.

But you ignore that aspect of history.

Seems you people hold them in disdain by saying they wouldn't.

Who has said they wouldn't?

All I have seen, here or in, you know, real history books is that they were unable or not allowed to *express* that rage.

And yet, as has been pointed out many times, sometimes they did.

Since the beginning of time the most hated people in the world have been people who harm children.

But yet you make excuses for exclusively oine group who did.

I ask you again: what, exactly, did the young man in my avatar do to deserve what the people you try to whitewash did to him?

Where is *your* rage for them?

 

[TSR]

No. It's because they are told and believe lies.

And yet, you have been completely unable to document a single such lie in an actual history book, preferring instead to whine about movies you haven't seen, and people who are not historians -- while continually posting lies which you either believe or will not de- or renounce.

For example, you continue to run away from discussing, let's say, "Other Losses" which you seemed to be citing earlier.

Or your crap about lying by lack of assertion.

Or the whole THHP thing.

Or the fact that you claim to know the "truth" about the Holocaust, but obviously have not actually read anything but denier crap on the subject.

But you have said those lies are okay, only those you pretend have any meaning to actual history are verboten.

And the lies you tell yourself: "Oh, let's have an anonymous poll, that'll show how people support me" "well, they are just being politically correct".

 

[Nick Terry]

The Jewish people of the day who I say would have surely reacted with rage or eventual rage if they witnessed or knew of atrocities against their children?

Yesterday I read a book by a sociologist, Violence: A Microsociological Study, by Randall Collins, and he had a whole section on victim passivity. He cited examples from

- the Rape of Nanking
- riots against Muslims in India

and several other situations where violence was being meted out to defenceless civilian populations. The Japanese became quite contemptuous of how passive the Chinese were, how easy they were to slaughter.

He also discussed how on the battlefield, the side losing the initiative often becomes paralysed and is slaughtered as a result. Yet the losing side still has weapons.

The common pattern is that people don't fight back nearly as much as you seem to think. This is a universal characteristic, since you can find examples from many different cultures.

 

[LemmyCaution]

All I have seen, here or in, you know, real history books is that they were unable or not allowed to *express* that rage.

All one can say is, here we go again.

Given examples of people reacting with rage to the actions of the Nazis, a week or so ago, Mr Moore responded by calling one person expressing hatred for the murderers "a crazed pathological liar," asking if one source wasn't a novel, and labeling another "scum" for reacting as Mr Moore advocates.

Of course, Jews caught up in the Holocaust expressed their feelings in many ways, as described here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8318570&postcount=2107. And also in writing. Just a few examples of Jews from Treblinka expressing their feelings, only these few as I'm feeling lazy and rushed this morning . . .

Abraham Krzepicki:

I saw beautiful children who looked like little angels, young girls in their first bloom, and my heart almost burst with pain and anger at how such beauty could be turned into ashes, but this also taught me one lesson: "Get out, get out of here, so you’ll live to see revenge, to see something else with those eyes which had to look upon scenes like these!”

I gathered all my strength, reminded myself of the motto “Revenge!

Samuel Willenberg:

That day we learned from the newcomers about the Warsaw ghetto revolt. We were shaken by the news. We had long known that a considerable number of Jews had been concentrated in Warsaw, and that many of them were ready to do battle for life and death, because the underground had prepared the ground for the organization of a resistance movement. The news of life and conditions in the ghetto filtered in to us only in bits and pieces. Nevertheless we would dwell upon them, argue about them and weave thoughts around them. In Warsaw were many of the relatives, friends and acquaintances, of our comrades. Warsaw was our hope, our secret dream. And lo and behold, we suddenly learned that in the crowded streets of the Warsaw ghetto the fire of revolt had flared, the rat-tat-tat of machine guns accompanied by the sound of exploding grenades. We pictured that bitter struggle to ourselves. Our hearts went out to the rebels; we worried about the fate of the heroes, the relatives who had remained there, and the children ...

The revolt of the Warsaw ghetto fired us, infused new strength into us. We, too, wanted to act and no longer allow ourselves to be led to our death stunned, submissive and helpless. In the evening the barrack hummed like a beehive. On every bunk a group sat conversing in low voices. We were all very excited; it seemed as if daylight had broken into the everyday drabness of the camp. Now our suffering was of only secondary importance. We launched into wild conjectures and we were beset by a fever of activity. The plan for the destruction of Treblinka and an armed revolt against our oppressors took shape. We heard the call of the woods, where the partisans were multiplying daily and which the SS and Wehrmacht companies entered with ever-increasing fear.

Slowly the underground raised its head in the camp.

Stanislaw Kon:

EVEN BEFORE I arrived at Treblinka, i.e., before October 1, 1942, cases of individual revenge on the part of Jews had been reported. Thus, for example, a Jewish man from Warsaw who worked in one of the death details and had seen his wife and child taken away to the gas chambers, attacked the SS man Max Biel[as] with a knife and killed him on the spot. From that day on, the SS barracks bore the name of this Hitlerite “martyr.” But neither the plaque on the wall of the barracks nor the massacre of Jews that followed this attack deterred us. On the contrary: this episode encouraged us to fight and take our revenge. The young man from Warsaw became our ideal.

As we witnessed Hitler’s horrible methods of extermination, a desire for revenge burned within us and grew each day, starting to concretize into something precise, particularly from the moment’ when the 50-year-old doctor, Chorążycki of Warsaw, began to be active.

 

[I am Bigfoot]

The common pattern is that people don't fight back nearly as much as you seem to think. This is a universal characteristic, since you can find examples from many different cultures.

I think it would also be apt to point out regular, modern day prisons. None of those people want to be there. The inmates vastly outnumber the guards, especially in America. Many of the people have violent tendencies or a violent past. Some (like Bob Hare) suspect something like 10% of the prison population literally have no qualms about killing anyone and everyone that get in their way. And these are people who aren't starved, aren't dying from rampant diseases, and aren't being used as slave labor. AND many take the opportunity in prison to get fit. Many are in the prime of their life and thanks to ridiculous "tough on crime laws" know they won't be out for a few decades, if ever so really have next to nothing to lose.
They hardly could be in a better position than to resist and fight, if it was something humans routinely did.

How many prison riots are there? How many resist violently to the point where they'd rather die than be captured and imprisoned (letting themselves be herded into prison one way or another)?

Answer: Single individuals here and there and a rare riot that eventually gets suppressed, usually quickly.


I'd like to point out, that I think that this is a survival thing. Both with criminals and with the Jews during the Holocaust. Individual survival, not survival as a group. People rarely risk their own lives to save the lives of others if there's zero chance of succeeding. From my recollection there were even Jews in death camps (and trustees in prison) that did/do the will of the guards because it would increase their own survival chances. Phil Zimbardo's The Lucifer Effect mentioned Jews attempting to make their own SS-type uniforms so they could basically endear themselves with the guards.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I'd like to point out, that I think that this is a survival thing. Both with criminals and with the Jews during the Holocaust. Individual survival, not survival as a group. People rarely risk their own lives to save the lives of others if there's zero chance of succeeding.

This is precisely what comes through in the many first-hand accounts I've read, from contemporary diaries to postwar interviews and memoirs. Nor, as you and Nick indicate, is any of this surprising. Nor is the range of behavior - of course, some individuals tried to organize collective resistance - and sometimes succeeded; of course, some individuals sought whatever advantages they could for themselves (think of Abraham Gancwajch and The Thirteen or other collaborators in Warsaw, some Kapos, informants, etc.); but of course most people tried to find a way to survive, as described quite cogently by Primo Levi in his various writings.

And Clayton's strawman - that absence of 24/7 resistance equals absence of anger - is both ludicrous on its merits and shown to be false by consulting what victims and observers actually wrote.

 

[Border Reiver]

Unfortunately, if this thread, the one on the USS Liberty and others started by Clay are a reliable indication he will ignore anything contrary to his preconceived understanding of the facts, lie low sulking for a period then come right back with his previously discredited ideas.

Clay's preconceptions are:

A. The Holocaust is a lie perpetrated to make lots of money;
B. the Holocaust is disproven because the Jews weren't continually fighting against the Nazis;
C. The evidence of said resistance can be ignored because, well Jews;
D. Although the mass graves have been shown to be big enough Clay doesn't believe it;
E. the German evidence was obviously fabricated after the fact to back it up; and
F. The only reason that anyone accepts the Holocaust is that certain people have convinced them that the lie is true and so that the money can keep coming in.

Have I missed anything?

 

[Cyrix686]

Has Clayton Moore explained yet why he spells the word "ghetto,"

"BS?"

 

[BaaBaa]

G. Jews!jews!jews!

 

[TSR]

Has Clayton Moore explained yet why he spells the word "ghetto,"

BS?

As I stated in another CM thread, it would appear that the operative reference comes from Lewis Carroll:

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

And in this case, it would appear that "ghetto" means "complete fabrication created after the fact, because that's what Jooos do..."

 

[Clayton Moore]

Quite obviously Jews, among others.

And some of them did.

But you ignore that aspect of history.

Who has said they wouldn't?

All I have seen, here or in, you know, real history books is that they were unable or not allowed to *express* that rage.

You don't understand rage. When you are enraged you can't function much beyond the object of your rage. When you are enraged you concern yourself with venting your rage. Revenge becomes your soul purpose.

The enraged person, without satisfaction, dwells on his or her and becomes even more enraged and focused on waiting for/finding an opportunity for revenge.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Phil Zimbardo's The Lucifer Effect mentioned Jews attempting to make their own SS-type uniforms so they could basically endear themselves with the guards.

So where do you find the time and lamp light and the tools and materials to make their own SS-type uniforms?

 

[I am Bigfoot]

So where do you find the time and lamp light and the tools and materials to make their own SS-type uniforms?

I don't know. From my memory they used random bits and scraps.
No one said they looked good or were well made. Just people trying to don the colors of the side that was winning at the moment.

Where do you find the justification to support the Nazis as innocent victims in this supposed lie?