General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[nomuse]

Yes...as far as I can make out, Snake Tongue is using volume exclusively. Any mention of weight is just a distraction (although it does lead to oddities like the lighter-than-lithium Jew when he carries his abstracted numbers too far).

However, I hasten to add, I am not sure what method Snake is using, because his posts are so full of multiple nested quotes of He Said She Said They Said I Said, I have great difficulty sorting out his thinking from the ideas he is rejecting.

 

[Dogzilla]

Oh, yeah. And posting pictures of severely anorexic people has diddly to do with an estimate of body weight that is only ten kilos less than that of an average man in good health.

Mr. Muehlenkamp informs us that the Belzec mass graves could hold most of the Jews murdered there because (among other reasons) the emaciated dwarf-like stature of the Ostjuden makes it possible to fit many more of them into the pits than would be possible if you were murdering the big strong Germans next door. Snaketongue mocks Mr. Muehlenkamp's characterization of the Ostjuden as "underweight" with a picture of a severely anorexic model. Then you counter Snaketongue by telling us that a severely anorexic model doesn't accurately represent the appearance of the Ostjuden because Mr. Muehlenkamp's estimate of the average body weight of the "emaciated" Ostjuden is only ten kilos less than that of an average man in good health.

I personally think Snaketongue's anorexic model is a little extreme but do you realize that in your haste to counter ST, you're dismissing part of Mr. Muehlenkamp's argument by saying that the Ostjuden weren't really all that tiny?

If you want to get an idea of what these doomed Belzec victims looked like, try to find some pictures. You can find a Belzec slideshow here that shows us what the Jews of Belzec looked like. There's some other Ostjuden pictures here, here, and here.

 

[Cyrix686]

Nice to see Dogzilla getting upset and reduced to blatant misrepresentation.

 

[Cyrix686]

I'm not actually sure what his point is. I saw the first picture of the Belzec Sonderkommando by the sorting barracks on the HEART site and assume that he is making some facile misrepresenting comment about well-fed Jews upon the strength of some photographs. Noting that some of the links lead to fictitious characters created by children's author Roald Dahl, I think I'm bang on the money and Doggy is upset.

Good.

Pictures only tell part of the story...and can never narrate everything. Trying to explain that to deniers got boring three years ago

 

[nomuse]

Mr. Muehlenkamp informs us that the Belzec mass graves could hold most of the Jews murdered there because (among other reasons) the emaciated dwarf-like stature of the Ostjuden makes it possible to fit many more of them into the pits than would be possible if you were murdering the big strong Germans next door. Snaketongue mocks Mr. Muehlenkamp's characterization of the Ostjuden as "underweight" with a picture of a severely anorexic model. Then you counter Snaketongue by telling us that a severely anorexic model doesn't accurately represent the appearance of the Ostjuden because Mr. Muehlenkamp's estimate of the average body weight of the "emaciated" Ostjuden is only ten kilos less than that of an average man in good health.

I personally think Snaketongue's anorexic model is a little extreme but do you realize that in your haste to counter ST, you're dismissing part of Mr. Muehlenkamp's argument by saying that the Ostjuden weren't really all that tiny?

If you want to get an idea of what these doomed Belzec victims looked like, try to find some pictures. You can find a Belzec slideshow here that shows us what the Jews of Belzec looked like. There's some other Ostjuden pictures here, here, and here.

No...because I READ the figures he was using. They are conservative. The difference in weight is not dwarfism or anorexia. The difference in weight is less than the difference between what I weigh now, and what I weighed twenty years ago. Now, you would not call me fat now. And I really, really doubt you'd call a US Army paratrooper "scrawny."

In fact, as I have stated several times, I find the assumption that the dead were of less than healthy weight unnecessary to achieve the needed capacity of the graves. With every single assumption taken to the most conservative possible -- no weighting of the relative numbers of children, no adjustment for weight of victims, no adjustment for decomposition, etc., you still find mass graves containing thousands of people. And you also find that the known graves are well within the same order of magnitude of the grave space required by the numbers believed to have perished.

This is exactly like some Apollo Deniers who fill sheet after sheet with (poorly-done) computation that proves that the life support capacity of A-11's A7L's was twenty minutes less than the length of the EVA. Your error is larger than your estimate. The number is so close to being consistent with all the other evidence, it is more natural to assume there are factors you haven't calculated or assumptions you have made incorrectly, than it is to assume some great worldwide conspiracy ALMOST got the number right but at the last minute wrote down a "9" instead of a "10."

 

[Nick Terry]

Mr. Muehlenkamp informs us that the Belzec mass graves could hold most of the Jews murdered there because (among other reasons) the emaciated dwarf-like stature of the Ostjuden makes it possible to fit many more of them into the pits than would be possible if you were murdering the big strong Germans next door. Snaketongue mocks Mr. Muehlenkamp's characterization of the Ostjuden as "underweight" with a picture of a severely anorexic model. Then you counter Snaketongue by telling us that a severely anorexic model doesn't accurately represent the appearance of the Ostjuden because Mr. Muehlenkamp's estimate of the average body weight of the "emaciated" Ostjuden is only ten kilos less than that of an average man in good health.

I personally think Snaketongue's anorexic model is a little extreme but do you realize that in your haste to counter ST, you're dismissing part of Mr. Muehlenkamp's argument by saying that the Ostjuden weren't really all that tiny?

If you want to get an idea of what these doomed Belzec victims looked like, try to find some pictures. You can find a Belzec slideshow here that shows us what the Jews of Belzec looked like. There's some other Ostjuden pictures here, here, and here.

So it seems you believe quite a few countries in the world are inhabited by dwarves - China, Chile, India, Mexico, Indonesia, Iraq, Malawi, Malaysia, Mongolia, Nigeria, Peru, Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam all have measured average heights for men and women which would together average at 160cm or only a little greater. And you can easily find female average heights of 160cm or below in many more countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

Historically, Italian soldiers were supposedly a mere 1cm taller in the mid-19th Century as Roberto's average height. Spanish and Dutch soldiers not much taller, and the Dutch were legendary for being short, yet are now one of the tallest nations in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#History_of_human_height

Your Belzec photo was interestingly chosen. One thing to note is that the pics are actually from the 1940 labour camp phase. The other is that the very next slide shows a row of men with wildly varying heights. As does the slide after that. And quite a few are indeed very short.

The taller men were much more likely to be spared for labour or become fugitives, and not even reach Belzec in the death camp phase.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Your Belzec photo was interestingly chosen. One thing to note is that the pics are actually from the 1940 labour camp phase. The other is that the very next slide shows a row of men with wildly varying heights. As does the slide after that. And quite a few are indeed very short.

Nick,

You seem to have missed the most important and intelligent part of Dogzilla's post -

If you want to get an idea of what these doomed Belzec victims looked like, try to find some pictures. You can find a Belzec slideshow here that shows us what the Jews of Belzec looked like. There's some other Ostjuden pictures here, here, and here.

Surely, here, here, and here are the most insightful and serious comments he's made on the topic of this thread.

What's conflating some dates, presenting some photos of one thing as evidence for another thing, and screwing up the arithmetic when he has snaps of cartoon characters to share?

LC

 

[Robert Muehlenkamp]

Mr. Muehlenkamp informs us that the Belzec mass graves could hold most of the Jews murdered there because (among other reasons) the emaciated dwarf-like stature of the Ostjuden makes it possible to fit many more of them into the pits than would be possible if you were murdering the big strong Germans next door.

Straw-man. Average adult height of 1.60 meters is not "dwarflike" and certainly wasn't in the 1940s. It wasn't all that much below the height of the average German (or the average Scotsman, for that matter) at the time.

I also didn't say the ghetto Jews were all emaciated. I considered their weight to have been in between the lowest and highest values of what is underweight for a person 1.60 meters tall, according to the BMI table.

Also, the comparatively smaller size and underweight state of the victims was not the factor but one of the factors that would have made it possible to bury all Belzec victims in the graves discovered by archaeologists, assuming there were no further graves (contrary to what is suggested by Alex Bay's air photo analysis). Other factors were decomposition and top-down partial burning as reported by Pfannenstiel.

Snaketongue mocks Mr. Muehlenkamp's characterization of the Ostjuden as "underweight" with a picture of a severely anorexic model.

Oh, so he was just "mocking" me. And I thought he was trying to make a point ...

Then you counter Snaketongue by telling us that a severely anorexic model doesn't accurately represent the appearance of the Ostjuden because Mr. Muehlenkamp's estimate of the average body weight of the "emaciated" Ostjuden is only ten kilos less than that of an average man in good health.

Actually it's only six kilos below the lowest threshold of what would be considered normal weight for a person 1.60 meters tall according to the BMI table.

I personally think Snaketongue's anorexic model is a little extreme but do you realize that in your haste to counter ST, you're dismissing part of Mr. Muehlenkamp's argument by saying that the Ostjuden weren't really all that tiny?

I'd say he's just backing my point, which is that underweight doesn't necessarily mean emaciated.

If you want to get an idea of what these doomed Belzec victims looked like, try to find some pictures. You can find a Belzec slideshow here that shows us what the Jews of Belzec looked like.

Actually it shows inmates of the Belzec labor camps in 1940, presumably chosen because they were in better-than-average conditions, i.e. the kind of people from among the affected ghetto populations who stood the best chance of not being deported to Belzec extermination camp in 1942 because they could perform hard labor. And even these don't exactly look well-fed.

There's some other Ostjuden pictures here, here and here.

Someone thinks he's being funny.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Someone thinks he's being funny.

He was sort of right, too, in that his remarks were comically wrong headed and that it has been funny to watch you guys expose his misunderstandings and smug self-certainty.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Oh wait. Why would the bodies be emaciated? Didn't they just arrive by train and were never even registered into the camp(s)? Then gassed?

 

[A'isha]

Oh wait. Why would the bodies be emaciated? Didn't they just arrive by train and were never even registered into the camp(s)? Then gassed?

Psst! Clayton!

Look:

I also didn't say the ghetto Jews were all emaciated. I considered their weight to have been in between the lowest and highest values of what is underweight for a person 1.60 meters tall, according to the BMI table.

Also, the comparatively smaller size and underweight state of the victims was not the factor but one of the factors that would have made it possible to bury all Belzec victims in the graves discovered by archaeologists, assuming there were no further graves (contrary to what is suggested by Alex Bay's air photo analysis). Other factors were decomposition and top-down partial burning as reported by Pfannenstiel.

[...]

Actually it's only six kilos below the lowest threshold of what would be considered normal weight for a person 1.60 meters tall according to the BMI table.


I'd say he's just backing my point, which is that underweight doesn't necessarily mean emaciated.

 

[Clayton Moore]

From 4chan, in a thread for generating fake rumors and conspiracy theories. Someone says "the Holocaust never happened". This was a response.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/19272587/#p19278375
Scary thing is, that's actually more plausible than some of the things we've seen argued here.

The plot thickens. In the work/alleged death camps Jewish people worked outside the camps and got paid for it and got to send and receive mail while other Jewish people performed the labor associated with the alleged gas chamber exterminations and earned death after 3 or 4 weeks of performing the labor associated with the alleged gas chamber exterminations.

I have no idea what you are talking about or how it relates to the quote.

I added the truth. Disturbing wasn't it. I notice that mums the word on it, other than your discharge. Can you believe the heinous Germans were paying wages to the intended victims of an alleged Final Solution? Letting them send and receive mail?

Those crafty Germans. I guess those privileges were to get the Jewish people to not feel too badly about the alleged atrocities against their children and babies and themselves. Another day another mark or two.

Kinda kicks to the curb the slave labor and work them till they drop nonsense.

 

[Nick Terry]

Oh wait. Why would the bodies be emaciated? Didn't they just arrive by train and were never even registered into the camp(s)? Then gassed?

evidently, Clayton has never heard of ghettos.

 

[Dcdrac]

Well we know Clayton knows nothering about the subject whatsoever

Still has not answered whether they have ever visited Deautschland

 

[TSR]

I added the truth.

Ummmm. No

Disturbing wasn't it.

Ummmm. No

I notice that mums the word on it, other than your discharge. Can you believe the heinous Germans were paying wages to the intended victims of an alleged Final Solution?

No, their wages usually went to the Commandant of the camp at which they were interned.

And BTW, I note you are still ducking the question of why they were in those camps in the first place?

I mean, they often had had jobs (which they were then legally prevented from doing) -- why weren't each one individually allowed to pursue those careers?

Letting them send and receive mail?

You misspelled "forced them to sign postcards lying about the conditions of where they had been confined."

And why were they confined in those camps to begin with? Shall we choose some individuals to discuss?

Those crafty Germans. I guess those privileges were to get the Jewish people to not feel too badly about the alleged atrocities against their children and babies and themselves. Another day another mark or two.

No, in those rare cases in which the inmates (why were they individually imprisoned again?) were "allowed" "wages" it was in the form of chits which could only be spent in the camp, making it harder for them to survive should they escape.

And why would they need to "escape" anyway, when the Nazis were treating them so well?

Kinda kicks to the curb the slave labor and work them till they drop nonsense.

Only if one forgets that whole, you know, historical fact thing and its inconvenient to your need to justify your hate consequences...

And what crime *did* the young man in my avatar do to deserve being shipped to the camps?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Oh wait. Why would the bodies be emaciated? Didn't they just arrive by train and were never even registered into the camp(s)? Then gassed?

Clayton, how do you spell ghetto? LC

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton, how do you spell ghetto? LC

BS?

 

[Robrob]

BS?

Wait, did you just deny there were Jewish Ghettos in WWII occupied Europe?

 

[LemmyCaution]

BS?

No wonder you don't know what went on in these places.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Ummmm. No

Ummmm. No

No, their wages usually went to the Commandant of the camp at which they were interned.

And BTW, I note you are still ducking the question of why they were in those camps in the first place?

I mean, they often had had jobs (which they were then legally prevented from doing) -- why weren't each one individually allowed to pursue those careers?

You misspelled "forced them to sign postcards lying about the conditions of where they had been confined."

And why were they confined in those camps to begin with? Shall we choose some individuals to discuss?

No, in those rare cases in which the inmates (why were they individually imprisoned again?) were "allowed" "wages" it was in the form of chits which could only be spent in the camp, making it harder for them to survive should they escape.

And why would they need to "escape" anyway, when the Nazis were treating them so well?

Only if one forgets that whole, you know, historical fact thing and its inconvenient to your need to justify your hate consequences...

And what crime *did* the young man in my avatar do to deserve being shipped to the camps?

So who do I hate?

The Jewish people of the day who I say would have surely reacted with rage or eventual rage if they witnessed or knew of atrocities against their children?


Seems you people hold them in disdain by saying they wouldn't.

Since the beginning of time the most hated people in the world have been people who harm children.