Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Mumbles]

If TM was the 12-year old we were initially told to belive he was,

well, now you're being silly. Martin was always reported to be a 17 year old black guy.

 

[LTC8K6]

No, but we can be pretty certain. "Random dude pulls his car over and stares at you" is a major cause for concern, and thus a good reason to flee.



Well, this is all just laughable.



Zimmerman's own story has him watching Martin for about a minute, after pulling his car over on a street where people apparently don't usually park, aside from an abandoned truck. If we ignore his own police call, then we must conclude that Zimmerman was lying to the police, which is worse for him.



Again, no. If I were watching someone, and they ran away, I'd leave them alone. And if someone were to run after me after I tried to flee from them, I'd consider them a threat. Meaning, if they got in range, I'd immediately hit them. I really have no idea where it's considered okay to chase after random people, but it's as good as a vocal threat where I'm from.

So far, there's little evidence that GZ ran after TM. There's little evidence that GZ wanted to get anywhere near TM. The one time TM gets near GZ, GZ sounds afraid of TM. GZ does not sound like he wants the encounter at all.

Flee? TM "flees" in fear only to a little beyond the T? That's ridiculous. He can go right home and lock himself in. He's well ahead of GZ, even if GZ did start to run after him. GZ doesn't get out of his car for several seconds after TM runs. 6 seconds to do 40 yards would be slow for a football player, for example.

You would punch me for following you? Immediately hit me? Bull.

You can't assault someone for following you. Period.
You can protect yourself if someone assaults you.

 

[bookworm]

well, now you're being silly. Martin was always reported to be a 17 year old black guy.

OK - I admit. I was being silly. I was playing along with the media pictures of the 12 year old looking innocent little boy we were initially led to believe TM was. But my point is that if that was who TM really was, I could believe he might be afraid of some guy following him. Now that I know that's not who TM really was, not so much.

 

[Moss]

One thing I wonder about is this: Why would Trayvon run at all if he is to return just a few seconds later?

 

[Newtons Bit]

One thing I wonder about is this: Why would Trayvon run at all if he is to return just a few seconds later?

Ambush.

 

[GWCarver]

OK - I admit. I was being silly. I was playing along with the media pictures of the 12 year old looking innocent little boy we were initially led to believe TM was. But my point is that if that was who TM really was, I could believe he might be afraid of some guy following him. Now that I know that's not who TM really was, not so much.

I don't think you were being silly. The picture fooled the President.

 

[LTC8K6]

Ambush.

But GZ is in his truck, facing the other way. There would be no indication that GZ is going to follow TM, or could even catch TM if he were to try.

TM ran home, imo. He waited at home, looking towards the T.

It's the only thing that makes any sense to me. TM ran to get home, but was still watching the area of the T, knowing that if GZ was still snooping around, he would likely go by there.

When TM sees GZ again, he gets mad about it and goes to confront GZ.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

One thing I wonder about is this: Why would Trayvon run at all if he is to return just a few seconds later?

You might want to review the timeline.

About 7:12 is when Zimmerman tells the NEN operator TM is running

About 7:16 is when DD says TM confronted GZ

Hardly a few seconds....

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

But I wonder why it is not reported in the non emergency 911 call...He does not say that Martin was circling his vehicle, but that's what he told police later that night and has consistently told authorities in subsequent interviews, according to the Sentinel's source."

A lot of people have brought that up but I'm not sure I find it that unusual. He explained that the person was acting suspicious, looked like he was on drugs and so on. I see no reason why he'd feel the need to mention every detail when he just wanted the police to send someone. Now if he was saying that TM had banged on his car aggressively or something of that nature, than I'd find it odd that he omitted it.

 

[Dan O.]

Why do you believe that TM ran?

Isn't GZ the only source for that?

What alternative are you suggesting? Why did George claim that Trayvon was running when he wasn't and still chase him down and kill him? Is that what you believe happened? If you believe that was what happened and that George lied about the encounter, why do you support George?


BTW: What I believe is that nothing is significantly changed if Trayvon was not running except that you are building in an assumption that George is deliberately lying to make Trayvon look guilty.

 

[Dan O.]

You might want to review the timeline.

About 7:12 is when Zimmerman tells the NEN operator TM is running

About 7:16 is when DD says TM confronted GZ

Hardly a few seconds....

The end of Dee-dee's call is not necessarily the same as the time of the confrontation. Dee-dee says that the line went dead but this would be indistinguishable to the phone or headset being muted. You are going to need more evidence to use that 7:16 time and I don't believe there are any sources for that information to be derived from.

 

[Dan O.]

TM ran home, imo. He waited at home, looking towards the T.

Could Trayvon have recognized George at that distance in the dark in the rain? It may be possible to see a figure sillouetted against the windows of the far building. But that would hardly provide enough information to make an identification. To keep your theory alive, you need to show that Trayvon would be able to recognize a stranger in those conditions that he had only seen the one time sitting in a vehicle.

 

[GWCarver]

A lot of people have brought that up but I'm not sure I find it that unusual. He explained that the person was acting suspicious, looked like he was on drugs and so on. I see no reason why he'd feel the need to mention every detail when he just wanted the police to send someone. Now if he was saying that TM had banged on his car aggressively or something of that nature, than I'd find it odd that he omitted it.

I wouldn't be surprised it Zimmerman said TM "walked around" his vehicle (to check Z out and to keep from running into his truck on his way to the cut through) and the police got creative and substituted "circled".

 

[Newtons Bit]

Could Trayvon have recognized George at that distance in the dark in the rain? It may be possible to see a figure sillouetted against the windows of the far building. But that would hardly provide enough information to make an identification. To keep your theory alive, you need to show that Trayvon would be able to recognize a stranger in those conditions that he had only seen the one time sitting in a vehicle.

Yea, it's a busy intersection.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The end of Dee-dee's call is not necessarily the same as the time of the confrontation. Dee-dee says that the line went dead but this would be indistinguishable to the phone or headset being muted. You are going to need more evidence to use that 7:16 time and I don't believe there are any sources for that information to be derived from.

According to DD, TM confronted GZ, then she magically heard TM being pushed through the phone, and then she heard the headset his hit the grass and the call ended. So yes, the end of DDs call is pretty much the same time as the confrontation.

I really don't think that requires any more evidence than believing DD. I am open to disbelieving most of what she says, but the call records are harder to lie about

 

[Noztradamus]

A lot of people have brought that up but I'm not sure I find it that unusual. He explained that the person was acting suspicious, looked like he was on drugs and so on. I see no reason why he'd feel the need to mention every detail when he just wanted the police to send someone. ....

Just the critical stuff like "He has a button on his shirt"

 

[Dan O.]

According to DD, TM confronted GZ, then she magically heard TM being pushed through the phone, and then she heard the headset his hit the grass and the call ended. So yes, the end of DDs call is pretty much the same time as the confrontation.

I really don't think that requires any more evidence than believing DD. I am open to disbelieving most of what she says, but the call records are harder to lie about

In her police interview, she described the incident as:

GIRLFRIEND: And then, I was still screaming, I was saying, "Trayvon! Trayvon!"

POLICE OFFICER: And there was no response?

GIRLFRIEND: Yeah, and then next thing—and next thing, the phone just shut off.

POLICE OFFICER: The phone shut off?

GIRLFRIEND: It just shut off.
​

Earlier she had said "the line went dead".

In neither case does she say the call ended or the phone hung up. You are making the assumption that the call ended because you want that time stamp marking the beginning of the altercation. But your desires don't dictate to reality.

Until there is some further evidence, the time stamp for that call only tells us, if you accept Dee-Dee's statement, that the altercation could not have started later than that time.

It is possible that Dee-Dee could tell us how long she waited after the line went dead before hanging up her end and calling Trayvon back. this would help establish the earlier limit on the start time.

 

[Cylinder]

Zimmerman's head injuries do seem to favor the right side. I'm guessing Martin was a southpaw.

That's some pretty nasty swelling below the base of the skull.

 

[LTC8K6]

Just the critical stuff like "He has a button on his shirt"

That's an identifying feature, though.

 

[LTC8K6]

In her police interview, she described the incident as:

GIRLFRIEND: And then, I was still screaming, I was saying, "Trayvon! Trayvon!"

POLICE OFFICER: And there was no response?

GIRLFRIEND: Yeah, and then next thing—and next thing, the phone just shut off.

POLICE OFFICER: The phone shut off?

GIRLFRIEND: It just shut off.
​

Earlier she had said "the line went dead".

In neither case does she say the call ended or the phone hung up. You are making the assumption that the call ended because you want that time stamp marking the beginning of the altercation. But your desires don't dictate to reality.

Until there is some further evidence, the time stamp for that call only tells us, if you accept Dee-Dee's statement, that the altercation could not have started later than that time.

It is possible that Dee-Dee could tell us how long she waited after the line went dead before hanging up her end and calling Trayvon back. this would help establish the earlier limit on the start time.

And then I forgot about the call for a couple weeks, even though I knew Trayvon had been killed...good thing Mr. Crump reminded me of that call, or I would never have mentioned it to anyone...