Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[bookworm]

duplication

 

[bookworm]

That's the central question here. Walking down the street and looking around is "suspicious", but pulling your car over to watch a random pedestrian, and then getting out to run after them is perfectly innocent, or so Zimmerman's defenders allege.

That makes no sense to me at all. Obviously, walking down a street is innocent, since millions of people do that every day. And it's just as obvious that people who pull their cars over specifically to watch someone are likely to be harassers, at best. So, what, is Martin suspicious because of his skin color?

My opinion is that they BOTH acted suspiciously from the other's point of view. And NEITHER of them did anything illegal at this point. BOTH of them made irresponsible choices.

 

[Dan O.]

I think TM walked around the vehicle, as he went by it.

As in, "I had to walk around the car because it was blocking the sidewalk".

Apart from there being no sidewalk so Trayvon would be walking down the side of the road if he didn't want to walk in the wet grass, I believe you are correct.

Of course we don't know what GZ actually said.

We know most of what he said to the dispatcher at the time. It's the stuff he makes up afterwards that we haven't gotten.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Is it paranoid when they really are out to get you?

Trayvon wouldn't know who was on the other side of the phone call. All he would know is that some stranger is comming after him and is on the phone at the time. It would be most reasonable to think there is another person at the other end of that phone call and that the other person is somehow involved with the stranger comming after him..

Coming after him ? From TM point of view, he saw a car drive by, and someone pull off to the side of the road to make a phone call. All those who claim that nothing TM did was suspicious should feel the same way about what GZ did.

I think it would be most reasonable to think someone about to leave the subdivision got a phone call and pulled over to take it ?

Not that he had a hidden partner and they were going to get me. In what world is that most reasonable thing to think ? Because mostly people who are pulled over to talk on the phone are really out to get you ?

Also, you never have let us know what GZ claims were that happened that evening ?

 

[Amazer]

My opinion is that they BOTH acted suspiciously from the other's point of view. And NEITHER of them did anything illegal at this point. BOTH of them made irresponsible choices.

I'd keep GZ to a higher standard. He's an adult as well as a member of the local NW.

 

[Dan O.]

We do have camera footage from a security camera at the compound, but we don't know what it shows. Yet.

Several security cameras are visible at the front gate in the google street view. They seem to be positioned to capture the vehicles entering and leaving. They might have caught Trayvon walking past and hanging out by the mailboxes. They would probably show George driving through the intersection.

This is another bit of evidence that it seems strange would not be released.

 

[Cylinder]

They are never "well south" of the T, imo.

TM's body is not very far from the T.

Yea, that was very poorly worded. I meant to say that the first witness that has come forawrd was W6 (aka John). By the time he came out, the struggle had moved south of the T, the flashlight was on the ground and Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

I think it unlikely that Zimmerman travelled any further south than the spot where he shot Martin. At this point, there is no evidence to support the theory that Zimmerman pursued Martin down the dogwalk and toward his home. The timeline seems to argue against it.

 

[Dan O.]

Coming after him ? From TM point of view, he saw a car drive by, and someone pull off to the side of the road to make a phone call. All those who claim that nothing TM did was suspicious should feel the same way about what GZ did.

I think it would be most reasonable to think someone about to leave the subdivision got a phone call and pulled over to take it ?

Not that he had a hidden partner and they were going to get me. In what world is that most reasonable thing to think ? Because mostly people who are pulled over to talk on the phone are really out to get you ?

Also, you never have let us know what GZ claims were that happened that evening ?

Trayvon ran after passing George's truck. This is so far undisputed. George got out of his truck and ran after Trayvon. Just about everybody accepts that this happened. given these facts, for you to dispute that Trayvon would feel that George was comming after him seems rather disingenuous.

George was on the phone with the dispatcher at the time. There is no indication that George had a headset or hands free device so it would be obvious to Trayvon that George was on the phone. How you manage to discard this is bizarre.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Trayvon ran after passing George's truck. This is so far undisputed. George got out of his truck and ran after Trayvon. Just about everybody accepts that this happened. given these facts, for you to dispute that Trayvon would feel that George was comming after him seems rather disingenuous.

We don't actually know where GZ was parked, and when TM ran. It's not so much undisputed as it is a reasonable assumption where GZ and when TM ran that we agree on. It could still turn out to be wrong.

scenario:
So TM sees a car driving towards the clubhouse, continue on past the clubhouse and TM, turn around and park legally on Twin Trees lane. The occupant of the car is then talking on the telephone. TM walks (circles) around the car, and then feels the need to take off running when he gets to the cut though.

At this point, TM should feel GZ is "comming after him" ? Really ? I disagree.

George was on the phone with the dispatcher at the time. There is no indication that George had a headset or hands free device so it would be obvious to Trayvon that George was on the phone. How you manage to discard this is bizarre.

I highlighted where I said he was on the phone for you, since you seem to have missed it the three times I said it:

Coming after him ? From TM point of view, he saw a car drive by, and someone pull off to the side of the road to make a phone call. All those who claim that nothing TM did was suspicious should feel the same way about what GZ did.

I think it would be most reasonable to think someone about to leave the subdivision got a phone call and pulled over to take it ?

Not that he had a hidden partner and they were going to get me. In what world is that most reasonable thing to think ? Because mostly people who are pulled over to talk on the phone are really out to get you ?

You keep neglecting to let us know what GZ claims were about what happened that evening

 

[Dan O.]

You keep neglecting to let us know what GZ claims were about what happened that evening

Everybody else knows what evidence has been made public and what information has arrived second or third hand. That you keep harping on this question seems trollish.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yep, not a far distance at all for George to have wandered while hunting for that ******* that appeared to have gotten away. But it is a very long way off the path back to his truck if all he did was cross to Retreat View Circle and head back. When are we going to hear the truth from George about what happened that night?

"Near" the tee is relative. We have seen the photos showing exactly where those objects were. The question is: How does this evidence fit with what George claims happened that night?

Everybody else knows what evidence has been made public and what information has arrived second or third hand. That you keep harping on this question seems trollish.

I thought it was a relevant question based on your recent posts.

Based on what I have read in this thread, there can be a large difference between what everybody knows and reality.

 

[Dan O.]

scenario:
So TM sees a car driving towards the clubhouse, continue on past the clubhouse and TM, turn around and park legally on Twin Trees lane. The occupant of the car is then talking on the telephone. TM walks (circles) around the car, and then feels the need to take off running when he gets to the cut though.

At this point, TM should feel GZ is "comming after him" ? Really ? I disagree.

Yet Trayvon ran. It makes little difference why Trayvon ran. But if Trayvon didn't feel the slightest bit concerned about the stranger in the truck on a cell phone watching him, there is no apparent reason why he would not continue around the corner and straight home.

If Trayvon was concerned about the stranger in the truck on a cell phone watching him, he would have looked back to see if this stranger was following him. Since Trayvon did not go straight home and George did get out of his truck and run after Trayvin, we can conclude logically that Trayvon did look back and see George Comming after him.

Seeing someone park in the middle of the block and run towards you in the cut-through leaves little room for interpretation. I'm sure you will try but it won't fit with the known evidence.

 

[AlBell]

Well, one thing is for certain. TM isn't around to tell us.

Yup. Sometimes your intended beatdown on whitey goes as planned. Who would have guessed GZ had a gun and was willing to use it when in fear of injury or death.

Sorry for the bad luck, T's death, and the effect on his family and friends. We'll see how the Murder 2 charge works out.

I think GZ's big problems will be the 'preponderance of evidence' civil suit, and the Fed's hate crime charges.

 

[LTC8K6]

Apart from there being no sidewalk so Trayvon would be walking down the side of the road if he didn't want to walk in the wet grass, I believe you are correct.




We know most of what he said to the dispatcher at the time. It's the stuff he makes up afterwards that we haven't gotten.

The sidewalk line was just an example of the use of the term.

If GZ made stuff up, SPD would probably have arrested him almost immediately.

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't think GZ ran any farther than however far he got before he said "okay" to the dispatcher regarding following TM.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yet Trayvon ran. It makes little difference why Trayvon ran.
[removed]

It makes about as much difference as why GZ found him suspicious, eh ?

 

[LTC8K6]

Yet Trayvon ran. It makes little difference why Trayvon ran. But if Trayvon didn't feel the slightest bit concerned about the stranger in the truck on a cell phone watching him, there is no apparent reason why he would not continue around the corner and straight home.

If Trayvon was concerned about the stranger in the truck on a cell phone watching him, he would have looked back to see if this stranger was following him. Since Trayvon did not go straight home and George did get out of his truck and run after Trayvin, we can conclude logically that Trayvon did look back and see George Comming after him.

Seeing someone park in the middle of the block and run towards you in the cut-through leaves little room for interpretation. I'm sure you will try but it won't fit with the known evidence.

Why do you believe that TM ran?

Isn't GZ the only source for that?

 

[Mumbles]

We aren't sure why TM runs.

No, but we can be pretty certain. "Random dude pulls his car over and stares at you" is a major cause for concern, and thus a good reason to flee.

There's no apparent reason for TM to run away from GZ's vehicle. As far as I know GZ hasn't yet done anything that should concern TM. All GZ has done is drive down the street and turn around and park.

Well, this is all just laughable.

I don't think TM expresses any concern about GZ prior to running, does he? GZ does not follow TM in the truck. GZ drives past TM, who is sheltering from the rain at the mailboxes, and parks. At most, GZ could have looked at TM, I think.

Zimmerman's own story has him watching Martin for about a minute, after pulling his car over on a street where people apparently don't usually park, aside from an abandoned truck. If we ignore his own police call, then we must conclude that Zimmerman was lying to the police, which is worse for him.

I think once TM runs away, it's natural for GZ to want to know what's up with him.

Again, no. If I were watching someone, and they ran away, I'd leave them alone. And if someone were to run after me after I tried to flee from them, I'd consider them a threat. Meaning, if they got in range, I'd immediately hit them. I really have no idea where it's considered okay to chase after random people, but it's as good as a vocal threat where I'm from.

 

[bookworm]

No, but we can be pretty certain. "Random dude pulls his car over and stares at you" is a major cause for concern, and thus a good reason to flee.



Well, this is all just laughable.



Zimmerman's own story has him watching Martin for about a minute, after pulling his car over on a street where people apparently don't usually park, aside from an abandoned truck. If we ignore his own police call, then we must conclude that Zimmerman was lying to the police, which is worse for him.



Again, no. If I were watching someone, and they ran away, I'd leave them alone. And if someone were to run after me after I tried to flee from them, I'd consider them a threat. Meaning, if they got in range, I'd immediately hit them. I really have no idea where it's considered okay to chase after random people, but it's as good as a vocal threat where I'm from.

If TM was the 12-year old we were initially told to belive he was, I could believe he might run away from a scary guy in a car. I have a very hard time believing the REAL TM was afraid of this big scary guy.

 

[bookworm]

.....And if someone were to run after me after I tried to flee from them, I'd consider them a threat. Meaning, if they got in range, I'd immediately hit them. I really have no idea where it's considered okay to chase after random people, but it's as good as a vocal threat where I'm from.

Actually, it's just as "not ok" to hit someone who is following you as it is to run after someone who you are suspicious of.