Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Dan O.]

Does TM know GZ got out of the vehicle? How?

Where did you get those blinders that let you miss the obvious? In the crime scene photos we can see what is probably George's truck parked on the north side of Twin Tree Lane near the middle of the block. In Google maps we can see the street lighting on the corner opposite the cut-through. This lighting is in a position to illuminate George's truck. We know from George's police call that Trayvon was watching George as he passed the truck. It is reasonable therefore to presume that Trayvon would look back to see how George reacted when Trayvon took off through the cut-through.

Also logically, TM should already have run home and should be unable to see what GZ does or where GZ goes.

You are pulling your logic from your desired conclusion. it's pure fallacy. We know that Trayvon did not in fact run home because he was still near the tee when the altercation too place. The speculation that he ran home ans ran back to the tee is just that, speculation, with absolutely no facts behind it. The evidence that it did not occure includes the fact that Trayvon was still carrying the snacks from the store which he could have left on his porch instead of lugging around in his pocket.

If Trayvon stops at the tee he will be able to look back and see what George is up to and will be able to see when George starts running in his direction.

So, why do the two meet?

We know why GZ is there. He's either looking for sign of TM and/or looking for a house number.

The claim that George was looking for a house number is a post-hawk rationalization. George was running after Trayvon and admitted such to the dispatcher at the time. If George even thought about house numbers, he could have read the number off the house at the edge of the cut-through.


Why did Trayvon stay near the tee instead of running home? Only Trayvon could have answered this but George silenced that voice permanently. We can therefore only propose possibilities. I've already mentioned a couple of possible reasons but you apparently had your fingers in your ears and didn't hear them so I'll have to repeat.:

Trayvon is at the tee and sees the suspiscious stranger get out of his truck and start running in his direction, if this stranger is comming after him to do him harm, it would be unwise to show the stranger where he is staying.

Also, trayvon would know that this stranger was on the phone with someone when he passes the truck. Trayvon would not know who that someone was but if he is an acomplis of the stranger that was chasing him, the someone at the other end of the phone might be heading into the neighborhood from the othe direction. Running in any direction could bring him into contact with the someone.

The best course of action when faced with this unknown situation could be to hide and wait for the strangers to go past.what would be less likely to anticipate would be for the stranger to enter the area df the tee and just hang around there.

 

[Cylinder]

Does TM know? Or is TM at a place where he can still see GZ?

My best theory relies on exactly that.

What did Zimmerman have in his hand? A flashlight. Zimmerman would have been visible to Martin for blocks.

What was Martin wearing? A dark hoodie. He would have been very easy missed or hidden.

It's nothing neccessarily sinister, they may well have just stumbled upon each other's path.

 

[marplots]

My best theory relies on exactly that.

What did Zimmerman have in his hand? A flashlight. Zimmerman would have been visible to Martin for blocks.

What was Martin wearing? A dark hoodie. He would have been very easy missed or hidden.

It's nothing neccessarily sinister, they may well have just stumbled upon each other's path.

Was the flashlight turned on?

 

[Cylinder]

Was the flashlight turned on?

I don't know if it was found on or off. I would guess off, since it should have been noted in the police report otherwise. It's quite dark down the cut through, as seen in the crime scene photos and according to witness statements. I would expect it to be on, since Zimmerman presumably brought it.

 

[This is The End]

<snip>

And third, Zimmerman completely fails to note it in his own police call, even though he's reporting "suspicious" behavior that actually sounds like just some guy walking down the street.

<snip>

Well, about a month ago we were all assuming that the truck circling supposedly happened after the not911 call.

From one of my posts 1 month and 50 pages ago:

If the "at the truck incident" happened BEFORE the not911 call it is weird that Z didn't say anything about it in the call.

If it happened AFTER the not911 call it is weird because of the time-line.

Either way it is weird.

What makes that even weirder is a week ago we found out that there was less than 2 minutes between Z hanging up the phone and the gun shot.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8306574#post8306574

So that pretty much means the circling of the truck had to happen before the not911, and Z just happened to completely fail to mention it in the call.

 

[This is The End]

What was Martin wearing? A dark hoodie.

I thought he had on a light-colored hoodie? Is the one in the M picture that everyone uses a different hoodie?

 

[Cylinder]

I thought he had on a light-colored hoodie? Is the one in the M picture that everyone uses a different hoodie?

Yea, the light gray hoodie is from I am Trayvon. Martin was wearing a black hoodie the night he was killed.

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't know if it was found on or off. I would guess off, since it should have been noted in the police report otherwise. It's quite dark down the cut through, as seen in the crime scene photos and according to witness statements. I would expect it to be on, since Zimmerman presumably brought it.

Do witnesses report a man with a flashlight prior to the shooting?

 

[LTC8K6]

Where did you get those blinders that let you miss the obvious? In the crime scene photos we can see what is probably George's truck parked on the north side of Twin Tree Lane near the middle of the block. In Google maps we can see the street lighting on the corner opposite the cut-through. This lighting is in a position to illuminate George's truck. We know from George's police call that Trayvon was watching George as he passed the truck. It is reasonable therefore to presume that Trayvon would look back to see how George reacted when Trayvon took off through the cut-through.





You are pulling your logic from your desired conclusion. it's pure fallacy. We know that Trayvon did not in fact run home because he was still near the tee when the altercation too place. The speculation that he ran home ans ran back to the tee is just that, speculation, with absolutely no facts behind it. The evidence that it did not occure includes the fact that Trayvon was still carrying the snacks from the store which he could have left on his porch instead of lugging around in his pocket.

If Trayvon stops at the tee he will be able to look back and see what George is up to and will be able to see when George starts running in his direction.






The claim that George was looking for a house number is a post-hawk rationalization. George was running after Trayvon and admitted such to the dispatcher at the time. If George even thought about house numbers, he could have read the number off the house at the edge of the cut-through.


Why did Trayvon stay near the tee instead of running home? Only Trayvon could have answered this but George silenced that voice permanently. We can therefore only propose possibilities. I've already mentioned a couple of possible reasons but you apparently had your fingers in your ears and didn't hear them so I'll have to repeat.:

Trayvon is at the tee and sees the suspiscious stranger get out of his truck and start running in his direction, if this stranger is comming after him to do him harm, it would be unwise to show the stranger where he is staying.

Also, trayvon would know that this stranger was on the phone with someone when he passes the truck. Trayvon would not know who that someone was but if he is an acomplis of the stranger that was chasing him, the someone at the other end of the phone might be heading into the neighborhood from the othe direction. Running in any direction could bring him into contact with the someone.

The best course of action when faced with this unknown situation could be to hide and wait for the strangers to go past.what would be less likely to anticipate would be for the stranger to enter the area df the tee and just hang around there.

GZ called an accomplice to get Trayvon? Is Trayvon paranoid now?

GZ is driving a Honda, I think. I don't recall seeing a Honda in the photographs. The photos the day after are likely using a stand-in vehicle placed where GZ says he parked.

TM says that he lost GZ. It would then be safe to go home. It's unlikely that TM would say he lost GZ while stopped at the T, or anywhere near the T.

Dee-Dee also says that TM is right near Brandy's house. That would not be near the T.

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, about a month ago we were all assuming that the truck circling supposedly happened after the not911 call.

From one of my posts 1 month and 50 pages ago:



What makes that even weirder is a week ago we found out that there was less than 2 minutes between Z hanging up the phone and the gun shot.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8306574#post8306574

So that pretty much means the circling of the truck had to happen before the not911, and Z just happened to completely fail to mention it in the call.

I think TM walked around the vehicle, as he went by it.

As in, "I had to walk around the car because it was blocking the sidewalk".

Of course we don't know what GZ actually said.

GZ also does not mention TM carrying the 7-11 bag. So my idea about when TM put the juice can in his pocket may be wrong.

 

[Dancing David]

The whole "Martin circled Zimmerman's truck" thing is interesting. First, it's not actually aggressive, considering the circumstances, so much as it is strange. Second, even if it were, the fact that Martin then ran basically negates it. And third, Zimmerman completely fails to note it in his own police call, even though he's reporting "suspicious" behavior that actually sounds like just some guy walking down the street.

I would say it is suspicious and odd. But I wonder why it is not reported in the non emergency 911 call

Just for review, what is the source of the 'circled the truck'
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...sentinel-george-zimmerman-said-trayvon-martin

"In an audio recording of Zimmerman's call to police that night, Zimmerman says Martin is acting suspiciously and describes him as a black teenager when prompted by the dispatcher.
He does not say that Martin was circling his vehicle, but that's what he told police later that night and has consistently told authorities in subsequent interviews, according to the Sentinel's source."

 

[Cylinder]

Do witnesses report a man with a flashlight prior to the shooting?

No to my knowledge, but there are no eyewitnesses at all in that period of time. The first eyewitness was W6. They were on the ground well south of the T at that point.

 

[Mumbles]

Would you please remind us again how walking slowly while talking on the phone is a suspicious action that needs to be reported to the police again? If we are going by that standard you apply to GZ that is.

That's the central question here. Walking down the street and looking around is "suspicious", but pulling your car over to watch a random pedestrian, and then getting out to run after them is perfectly innocent, or so Zimmerman's defenders allege.

That makes no sense to me at all. Obviously, walking down a street is innocent, since millions of people do that every day. And it's just as obvious that people who pull their cars over specifically to watch someone are likely to be harassers, at best. So, what, is Martin suspicious because of his skin color?

 

[Mumbles]

I would say it is suspicious and odd. But I wonder why it is not reported in the non emergency 911 call

Just for review, what is the source of the 'circled the truck'
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...sentinel-george-zimmerman-said-trayvon-martin

"In an audio recording of Zimmerman's call to police that night, Zimmerman says Martin is acting suspiciously and describes him as a black teenager when prompted by the dispatcher.
He does not say that Martin was circling his vehicle, but that's what he told police later that night and has consistently told authorities in subsequent interviews, according to the Sentinel's source."

No, I know that it's been claimed. I just find it very strange that Zimmerman, who described trivial activities like "walking around, looking about", and "looking at houses" as suspicious, would make no mention of it.

Look, when I was a kid, one of my neighbors beat the hell out of his wife in the street. When we called 911, we didn't say "Well, he's sort of waving his hands about." We said "he's beating the hell out of his wife in the street." I'd expect the same sort of thing out of anyone calling the police, since it's just basic sense.

 

[sgtbaker]

No, I know that it's been claimed. I just find it very strange that Zimmerman, who described trivial activities like "walking around, looking about", and "looking at houses" as suspicious, would make no mention of it.

Look, when I was a kid, one of my neighbors beat the hell out of his wife in the street. When we called 911, we didn't say "Well, he's sort of waving his hands about." We said "he's beating the hell out of his wife in the street." I'd expect the same sort of thing out of anyone calling the police, since it's just basic sense.

I find that weird, too. I suspect we won't know exactly what GZ said until the trial. Until then, all we really have is speculation. GZ was pretty detailed in his description on TM's actions so it's entirely possible that if he said that TM circled his truck, it was some sort of exaggeration, after the fact. The source, though, if I recall correctly, was the Sentinel quoting Tracy Martin, who was quoting Serino, who was quoting Zimmerman. It's also entirely possible that it was a really bad game of telephone, going on there, where staring and walking past the truck evolved into circling. I will withhold judgement until that can be cleared up.

 

[LTC8K6]

That's the central question here. Walking down the street and looking around is "suspicious", but pulling your car over to watch a random pedestrian, and then getting out to run after them is perfectly innocent, or so Zimmerman's defenders allege.

That makes no sense to me at all. Obviously, walking down a street is innocent, since millions of people do that every day. And it's just as obvious that people who pull their cars over specifically to watch someone are likely to be harassers, at best. So, what, is Martin suspicious because of his skin color?

We aren't sure why TM runs. There's no apparent reason for TM to run away from GZ's vehicle. As far as I know GZ hasn't yet done anything that should concern TM. All GZ has done is drive down the street and turn around and park. I don't think TM expresses any concern about GZ prior to running, does he? GZ does not follow TM in the truck. GZ drives past TM, who is sheltering from the rain at the mailboxes, and parks. At most, GZ could have looked at TM, I think.

It's not clear to me why TM would be bothered by GZ up until TM runs away.

I think once TM runs away, it's natural for GZ to want to know what's up with him.

 

[LTC8K6]

No to my knowledge, but there are no eyewitnesses at all in that period of time. The first eyewitness was W6. They were on the ground well south of the T at that point.

They are never "well south" of the T, imo.

TM's body is not very far from the T.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I find that weird, too. I suspect we won't know exactly what GZ said until the trial. Until then, all we really have is speculation. GZ was pretty detailed in his description on TM's actions so it's entirely possible that if he said that TM circled his truck, it was some sort of exaggeration, after the fact. The source, though, if I recall correctly, was the Sentinel quoting Tracy Martin, who was quoting Serino, who was quoting Zimmerman. It's also entirely possible that it was a really bad game of telephone, going on there, where staring and walking past the truck evolved into circling. I will withhold judgement until that can be cleared up.

Circled, as in walked towards, around, and continued on. It was never circling, AFIAK it was circled. That could be right here:
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.

TM>____/ car \______

My poor ascii art above could be described as 'circled the car'. Not , like he ran around it in circles, but came towards and deliberately walked around it.

 

[LTC8K6]

If Martin was circling GZ's vehicle, and GZ did not get out and confront him, it would be a strong point in GZ's favor.

If we only knew what actually happened...

We do have camera footage from a security camera at the compound, but we don't know what it shows. Yet.

 

[Dan O.]

GZ called an accomplice to get Trayvon? Is Trayvon paranoid now?

Is it paranoid when they really are out to get you?

Trayvon wouldn't know who was on the other side of the phone call. All he would know is that some stranger is comming after him and is on the phone at the time. It would be most reasonable to think there is another person at the other end of that phone call and that the other person is somehow involved with the stranger comming after him.

GZ is driving a Honda, I think. I don't recall seeing a Honda in the photographs. The photos the day after are likely using a stand-in vehicle placed where GZ says he parked.

I can't imagine Why information about the truck would be unknown or withheld from the public. With no evidence to contradict it, we can simply assume that the stand-in vehicle is in the correct location.

TM says that he lost GZ. It would then be safe to go home. It's unlikely that TM would say he lost GZ while stopped at the T, or anywhere near the T.

Trayvon is telling this to a friend on the phone who would otherwise worry. If trayvon were hiding and watched George go past, "lost him" would be the appropriate term. But he would know this stranger would be returning to his truck so it would be premature to leave the hiding place.

Dee-Dee also says that TM is right near Brandy's house. That would not be near the T.

Near is a relative term. Compared to the location of the 7-11, the tee is practically in his own back yard.