Nick tossed one of his famous word salads that talked about various bad things that happened to Jews but didn't come close to telling us if those bad things were holocaust related or war related.
You clearly didn't read those posts very well; they were itemised quite deliberately. One would have thought that a point like this one:
4. Jews fought in the various campaigns on the Allied side, and some were killed in action or taken prisoner. The killed in action (like the 32,000 Polish Jews killed in 1939, or the 140,000 Soviet Jewish soldiers killed from 1941-45) are not Holocaust victims; Polish and Soviet prisoners of war were treated as Jews and subjected to the Holocaust so are Holocaust victims. As most occupied countries (in western Europe or the Balkans) were overrun quickly, the number of combat deaths was fairly small in comparison to the total population and thus, to the total Jewish population, and is thus irrelevant.
clearly indicates which deaths are regarded as war-related and which deaths were murders.
One would also have thought that the penultimate point
17. Bottom line is, the Nazis behaved in such a racist and antisemitic fashion from the get-go in all occupied territories that they rapidly escalated to killing Jews qua Jews, reducing the chance that Jews would die for purely war-related reasons. But Jews did die because of war-related reasons. It's not as simple as saying that 5.1-5.3 million Jews died in the Holocaust and the balance died in the war to a total of 6 million. 200-300,000 'war casualties' maybe. Which compared to the population loss of Belgium at 88,000 out of nearly 9 million, is quite high.
answered your question with a reasonable estimate. Further details are available in country-specific studies x 20 x many more; I already cited extensively from one on Austria for example.
Nobody knows or wants to say how many innocent Jewish civilians just happen to have been caught in the crossfire;
It was patiently explained why the number of collateral damage deaths would be low for Jews in many countries; they were deported and murdered long before really serious collateral damage was occurring in sieges or from bombing. In the cases where there was really serious fighting which killed Jewish civilians, there are decent estimates, specifically for Poland and Hungary, which are factored in to the overall demographic balances.
You seem to be forgetting that Holocaust victim statistics are generally known through adding up deportations and other documents recording killings.
What happened to Jews in France in the 1940 or 1944 campaigns is basically irrelevant to any calculation of Holocaust statistics for France, since the total Jewish population of France is not known with absolute precision, and the number of Holocaust victims is based on the number deported, minus returning survivors. Total French losses in WWII were about 1.35% of the population (including Holocaust deaths); the most common estimate of the Jewish population of France in 1940 is 300,000; one would therefore struggle mightily to see how even several thousand deaths of French Jews from war related causes would make a real difference when the number of Holocaust victims in France is not more than 75,000.
Of course, historians
have researched things like
Jews in the French Foreign Legion, including in WWII. Why the Foreign Legion? Because the majority of Jews in France were recent immigrants.
25,000 foreign Jews volunteered in 1939-40 for French military service. Native-born French Jews, like the historian Marc Bloch, also served. Some were killed and some were taken prisoner in 1940. Fewer got a chance to escape to fight on.
how many died of old age or other natural causes;
For Germany itself those figures are in the Korherr report. It was really only in Germany and Austria that European Jews were in demographic decline. Everywhere else they were not. Therefore how many died of old age
outside of captivity is no more relevant than how many Frenchmen and women died of old age; the numbers would be melted down into any overall demographic balance.
For Eastern Europe there
are no "natural causes" because you're talking about a violent imposed occupation which discriminated against Jews on racial lines, decreeing significantly lower rations and poorer conditions for Jews from the outset. The Polish and Soviet Jewish populations were growing steadily; the occupation threw that growth into reverse just as if one was discussing a major famine.
Demographic losses are usually considered to include lost population growth, i.e. unborn children or an excess of deaths over births. The Nazi occupation
prevented the Polish Jewish population from growing by what would have been probably 150-200,000 people over 1939 to 1945 if they had been left undisturbed. Since some of this population growth was already underway in 1939 (pregnancies which came to term in 1940) and did not shut down immediately (women did become pregnant before being ghettoised, and some after being ghettoised) then the demographic trend did not shut down straight away. By the time it did, then you're into the ghettos phase, which means a racist policy of confinement.
Nobody who has examined this question seriously has not recognised that demographic loss plays some role at the margins with the overall statistics for Polish Jews; but since the Nazis went out of their way to treat Polish Jews in a racist fashion and to 'encourage' them to croak from the get-go, that demographic loss is part and parcel of the
genocide of Polish Jews. Later on, of course, the Nazis decreed little things like pregnancies among Jewish forced labourers were verboten, and executed pregnant mothers for the crime of trying to bear children.
Frankly, any 'pure demographic loss' is probably not fully counted in figures of 2.7-3 million Polish Jewish Holocaust deaths, since there is a deficit in between those figures and the 1939 population which is greater than the number of known survivors. That deficit = war losses.
or how many missing are among the casualties.
The term 'missing' has a variety of quite specific meanings depending on the context when discussing WWII casualties.
Armies record the number of soliders who go missing, most of whom turn out to be captured, some of whom are genuinely missing, and if they are still missing at the end of the war when a defence ministry calculates overall military casualties then they are listed as 'missing' and presumed dead. Thus the 140,000 Soviet Jewish soldiers =
killed and missing as is standard for all of the Russian Ministry of Defence statistics. Some of those names may in fact have been POWs and thus murdered. For any other nations then you would simply have to look up the relevant military statistics and look into the casualties of Jewish soldiers. But this would be generally irrelevant.
Jews
and non-Jews are recorded as 'missing' after Nazi deportation - this applies to foreign workers, concentration camp prisoners as well as Holocaust victims. That means they did not return from captivity and are legally dead. The ITS Arolsen has traced a lot of missing persons from the war specifically concentrating on victims of deportations, and can find some examples of names in KZ death books for both Jews and non-Jews. The ones who are not recorded in KZ death books aren't 'missing' in any meaningful sense, however. Jews from Warsaw deported to Treblinka died at Treblinka. They didn't go wandering off to the fantasy resettlement camps you don't like to talk about.
There generally aren't any statistics for civilians missing during the war in Europe, irrespective of their ethnicity/religion. Collateral damage casualties are often estimated and only rarely have been calculated postwar with any precision for different countries. But the course of the war is well known enough that we know when cities were bombed and when they were fought over. Western countries have better records than East European countries (thus we know that
453 Dutch civilians were killed in the Battle of Arnhem), but the latter still have some idea whether there was actually any fighting capable of killing people in a particular siege.
The Battle of Budapest in 1945
cost about 38,000 civilian lives, of whom 15,000 were Jews, but as mentioned already quite a few were executed by the Arrow Cross.
As it happens, when I calculated 5.3 million Holocaust dead
several years ago, I excluded all the deaths in Hungary itself for Hungary, simply stating 410,000+, this figure being composed of the number who did not return from the various deportations (including to Kamenets-Podolsk in 1941 as well as the autumn 1944 deportations).
Essentially, how many European Jews died during World War II who were not murdered by the Nazis?
Asked and answered (200-300,000 war losses). You evidently just don't like the answers you have been given, which is why you continue to handwave furiously and have apparently abandoned any hope of making a coherent point.
Just what is your point anyway? If you actually explored this subject honestly you'd find many of your ostensible questions have been answered somewhere.
