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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Dogzilla said:
OK. Then there were non-holocaust related deaths of Jews. How many?
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You don't know? Or aren't saying? It was, after all, your argument that Holocaust related deaths could be replaced with deaths of Jews during this period for other causes . . .
 
Bluespaceoddity said:
Hi, is it really you? Welcome to the thread. I've read every comment so far.
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Yes, it is me.
There are a few other questions that are still awaiting an answer. Are yours more urgent? Will you be staying long?
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You should post a list of those questions.
I wouldn't say they were objectively more urgent. I just personally thought the answers could be interesting. I'll be about for a while. Probably not posting a whole lot, but I'll be around.
What do you think of those punished after the Nuremberg Trials?
Since this stuff is true and confessions are indeed proof that the Holocaust happened, perhaps you'd like to cite some examples. To let people know which confessions you were thinking about specifically when you wrote that...

How many Jews do you think were killed?
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I'm not sure how I feel about those punished. They were reprehensible, but frankly, I feel like a lot of the stuff that went down was so far beyond normal crime that I don't know what punishments were appropriate.

I'm not a denier, I agree that this stuff is true. And hypothetically the confessions could be false (I don't think they are, I just wanted to avoid that whole roundabout discussion of how much PROOF a confession really is), I just wanted to know how a denier would explain such admissions such as Speer's that he knowingly used slave labor from concentration camps.

How many Jews were killed? Well I can't claim to have better insight into that than the vast majority of professional historians.
 
SnakeTongue said:
6) Roberto Muehlenkamp’s calculation does not have any “order of magnitude”.
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You know, a sensible thing to do when you see someone use a term that you don't understand is to ask what they mean with it. If you believe that asking would shatter your carefully preserved image of omniscience, you could google the term to see what it means. Posting things like the quote above could do a lot of damage to your credibility. Though, damage control might be a tad too late for this forum, given that you did earlier admit not knowing who Himmler was and it's difficult to come up with a more effective demonstration of lack of knowledge that that. But it's a thing for you to remember when you barge on some other forum.

By the way, you might want to check what the x2 button on the toolbar above the reply text box does.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Retrocausuality
Retrocausality
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Yeah, we know that you jumped on typos because your arguments were getting hammered.

Would you rather people point out that sentences start with capital letters? Maybe pretend we couldn't figure out what you were talking about because your sentence was incomplete?
 
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LemmyCaution said:
The Schillinger incident is mentioned by IIRC Filip Mueller, Jerzy Tabau, Pery Broad, John Wiernicki, Zalmen Gradowski, Shlomo Dragon, Sara Nomberg-Pryztyk, and Janda Weiss.

The killing of Max Bialas by Meir Berliner was mentioned by Tanhum Grinberg, Boris Weinberg, Richard Glazar, and Elias Rosenberg, and IIRC Oscar Strawczynski. Shalom Kohn reported being told of the killing. My post made no reference to Krzepicki, but, of course, he did provide testimony to Oyneg Shabes that included this individual act of resistance.

So that I have this straight: If there is testimony or a memoir that doesn't mention resistance or murderous revenge, you use the absence of such mention as proof of the lack of resistance. If, however, a source includes description of vengeful acts or resistance, you hand-wave it away as fiction or pathological lying?
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Does LemmyCaution have that straight, ClaytonMoore? Can you write a chronologically accurate narrative in which you explain what these scans are and what they are doing here? http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/memory/sub_ringelblum/index.php?fileid=003_17&va_lang=en
 
I am Bigfoot said:
Yes, it is me.

You should post a list of those questions.
I wouldn't say they were objectively more urgent. I just personally thought the answers could be interesting. I'll be about for a while. Probably not posting a whole lot, but I'll be around.

I'm not sure how I feel about those punished. They were reprehensible, but frankly, I feel like a lot of the stuff that went down was so far beyond normal crime that I don't know what punishments were appropriate.

I'm not a denier, I agree that this stuff is true. And hypothetically the confessions could be false (I don't think they are, I just wanted to avoid that whole roundabout discussion of how much PROOF a confession really is), I just wanted to know how a denier would explain such admissions such as Speer's that he knowingly used slave labor from concentration camps.

How many Jews were killed? Well I can't claim to have better insight into that than the vast majority of professional historians.
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It really is you and here I was doubting you. Your timing is pretty good too, as you can see Dogzilla will be publishing data on that any day now.
Now that you're here I can even sorta imagine that he actually exists. I can also understand your concern for privacy but could you use a recent photo of yourself as avatar? Nothing showing your neck of the woods of course but this is so exciting ...
 
Bluespaceoddity said:
Does LemmyCaution have that straight, ClaytonMoore? Can you write a chronologically accurate narrative in which you explain what these scans are and what they are doing here? http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/memory/sub_ringelblum/index.php?fileid=003_17&va_lang=en
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It would be helpful if there was a translation (particularly of the "summons") of what these documents said. Also, when you present entries to a diary as evidence of something, please try to use a diary that was written by somebody who's name isn't "unknown." A person who is known and who is known to be credible is always a better choice for an eyewitness. Pesye Schloss was a better eyewitness than this person and we know what a pathetic wretch Pesye turned out to be!!

But to answer your question: "Does LemmyCaution have that straight, ClaytonMoore?" Based on past performance I would say no. But there's no way of telling from what you presented. Is there anything else from these Oneg Shabbat people that would be a little more, ya know, credible? Or is this all you got?


Can you write a chronologically accurate narrative in which you explain what these scans are and what they are doing here?
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Of course not! What these scans are cannot be described in the form of a "chronologically accurate narrative." They can't be described at all without knowing what they say.

As to what they are doing here? You mean, on the internet? Probably somebody thinks they are evidence of some aspect of the holocaust.

What they are in reality is a shining example of the type of evidence that forms the load bearing walls of the holocaust.
 
Nick Terry said:
That's your job, since I believe it was you that was struggling to make a point about non-Holocaust related deaths of Jews. Not me.
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No, I'm responding to somebody who thinks there's a relationship between the holocaust and World War II. Other than happening roughly at the same time and in the same place, there isn't. Jews didn't die in World War II. They died in the holocaust. I know it's a stupid concept but that's the holocaust for you.

You seem to be confused. So let's start at the beginning. Actually, let's just simplify the whole thing. True or False. The only possible fates for Jews living in the parts of Europe that were under Nazi occupation is 1) survive the war or 2) intentionally murdered by the Nazis as part of their plan to exterminate all the Jews in Europe except for the Jews they didn't want to exterminate? If the second option is too complex, feel free to break it down and tell me what parts are true and what aren't.
 
Pesye Schloss most likely "turned out to be" another victim of the Nazis at Ponar. That's a guess, based on the circumstances and available evidence. What "we all know" is that her testimony, and that of Yudis Trojak and Teme Katz, meshed well with Sakowicz's diary, Dworzecki's book and postwar testimony, German documents including Jaeger's report, and other evidence concerning events in Vilna and Ponar in September 1941.

I am guessing that Blue Space Oddity's point is a little different to Dogzilla's "I know nothing" musings.

First, anyone who knows anything about Warsaw ghetto knows that there is much more from Onyeg Shabes and the Ringelblum Archive than collected on the Web page cited by Blue Space Oddity. I guess that means, by his asking, that Dogzilla's either playing games or parading his ignorance. It would help us understand his point if Dogzilla would spit out why he doesn't find the following documents credible: Szlamek's report, the list of those shot on Bloody Friday, the announcement that Jews were to report for deportation, Krzepicki's report, and a note on an emptied apartment.

Second, anyone who has read diaries, by named and unnamed people (sometimes the evidence has gaps, but it is the evidence we have), secondary sources, and other primary documents from Warsaw during the war years could do just what Blue Space Oddity asked concerning these pieces of evidence, that is, use them in constructing a narrative. Which must mean that revisionism is lacking a narrative concerning Warsaw, at least one using these rather well-known pieces of evidence.
 
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Dogzilla said:
No, I'm responding to somebody who thinks there's a relationship between the holocaust and World War II. Other than happening roughly at the same time and in the same place, there isn't. Jews didn't die in World War II. They died in the holocaust. I know it's a stupid concept but that's the holocaust for you.

You seem to be confused. So let's start at the beginning. Actually, let's just simplify the whole thing. True or False. The only possible fates for Jews living in the parts of Europe that were under Nazi occupation is 1) survive the war or 2) intentionally murdered by the Nazis as part of their plan to exterminate all the Jews in Europe except for the Jews they didn't want to exterminate? If the second option is too complex, feel free to break it down and tell me what parts are true and what aren't.
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Pathetic wretch of a strawman. Abject. Desperate.
 
Dogzilla said:
It would be helpful if there was a translation (particularly of the "summons") of what these documents said. Also, when you present entries to a diary as evidence of something, please try to use a diary that was written by somebody who's name isn't "unknown." A person who is known and who is known to be credible is always a better choice for an eyewitness. Pesye Schloss was a better eyewitness than this person and we know what a pathetic wretch Pesye turned out to be!!

But to answer your question: "Does LemmyCaution have that straight, ClaytonMoore?" Based on past performance I would say no. But there's no way of telling from what you presented. Is there anything else from these Oneg Shabbat people that would be a little more, ya know, credible? Or is this all you got?

Of course not! What these scans are cannot be described in the form of a "chronologically accurate narrative." They can't be described at all without knowing what they say.

As to what they are doing here? You mean, on the internet? Probably somebody thinks they are evidence of some aspect of the holocaust.

What they are in reality is a shining example of the type of evidence that forms the load bearing walls of the holocaust.
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I'm pretty sure BSO was highlighting 'Szlamek's testimony from Chelmno, seeing as how you guys don't really do anything other than death camps, and seeing as how it's the one which is actually translated on the web-page. Szlamek's identity is not only known very precisely but we have external contemporary evidence of his flight from the Warthegau in the form of diaries (written by named, known individuals). Look up Szlamek in the white paper in my sig for details.

Still, it is rather hilarious to see you try to whale on the account from Slonim when the name of the interviewer is known, there is another account from Slonim by a named individual in the same Oneg Shabes archive, and there are multiple Nazi documents recording the serial massacres in Slonim during 1941.
 
Dogzilla said:
No, I'm responding to somebody who thinks there's a relationship between the holocaust and World War II. Other than happening roughly at the same time and in the same place, there isn't. Jews didn't die in World War II. They died in the holocaust. I know it's a stupid concept but that's the holocaust for you.

You seem to be confused. So let's start at the beginning. Actually, let's just simplify the whole thing. True or False. The only possible fates for Jews living in the parts of Europe that were under Nazi occupation is 1) survive the war or 2) intentionally murdered by the Nazis as part of their plan to exterminate all the Jews in Europe except for the Jews they didn't want to exterminate? If the second option is too complex, feel free to break it down and tell me what parts are true and what aren't.
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<SNIP>. Historical reality is always more complex. There are multiple relationships between the Holocaust and WWII on many levels. We have even discussed some of them in recent weeks. Some examples:

1. The course of the war influenced the timing and pace of the mass murder of Jews, and later on slowed it down because the need for labour in 1944 outweighed the ideological goal of killing Jews.

2. The same units and personnel who killed Jews also killed non-Jews. The same techniques were used to kill both Jews and non-Jews.

3. In many countries occupied by the Nazis (Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia to name but a few), more non-Jews than Jews died - those are absolute numbers.

4. Jews fought in the various campaigns on the Allied side, and some were killed in action or taken prisoner. The killed in action (like the 32,000 Polish Jews killed in 1939, or the 140,000 Soviet Jewish soldiers killed from 1941-45) are not Holocaust victims; Polish and Soviet prisoners of war were treated as Jews and subjected to the Holocaust so are Holocaust victims. As most occupied countries (in western Europe or the Balkans) were overrun quickly, the number of combat deaths was fairly small in comparison to the total population and thus, to the total Jewish population, and is thus irrelevant.

5. Ditto with civilian deaths from collateral damage. The 1939-41 campaigns were relatively brief, and while they killed many civilians, the numbers were proportionately small. Some evidence exists that during the siege of Warsaw, German artillery fire was directed deliberately onto the Jewish districts, but the total loss of life among Jews from collateral damage in the 1939 campaign is not ascribed to the Holocaust.

6. The Nazis had an almost unerring habit of deporting Jews en masse long before the war returned to the relevant countries or regions. By the time that there was a battle of Kharkov in 1943, the Jews of Kharkov had all been machine-gunned into Drobitskii Yar. By the time that there was a battle of Warsaw in 1944, the Jews of Warsaw had all been deported; the thousands in hiding became part of the total civilian casualites of the Warsaw Uprising of 1944, the catch being that it's evident that some were killed as Jews when their hiding places were uncovered.

7. Bombing wasn't very effective until well into the war and inflicted relatively few casualties in 1940-42. The Nazis deported the Jews from their cities almost entirely by the end of 1942, in some cases immediately prior to bombing raids whose timing they could not possibly know. The Jewish armaments workers of Berlin were deported at the start of 1943, whereas the prolonged 'Battle of Berlin' was at the end of 1943. Allied air raids on cities like Belgrade took place long after there were no more Jews in Belgrade.

8. The Germans however perceived a connection, albeit delusory, between air raids and Jews, and actually wrote quite a lot to the Nazi authorities suggesting that Jews be held near to threatened cities as hostages in order to stop the Allies bombing the cities. When the Allies bombed Budapest in mid-1944, this was one of a number of factors leading Admiral Horthy to call a halt to the deportations of Hungarian Jews.

9. Many Jews in France were rounded up after 'Barbarossa' as so-called 'communists' and then treated as hostages when the PCF organised resistance, some being shot while others were then deported to Auschwitz as a substitute for increasing reprisal shootings. The choice of Jews as hostages was deliberate and racist, making them Holocaust victims.

10. In Yugoslavia, native resistance led the Nazis to decide to shoot Austrian Jewish refugees interned by the Yugoslav government in a refugee camp at Sabac as 'hostages', a reprisal which targeted entirely the wrong population since Austrian Jewish refugees were not even vaguely part of Tito's popular front resistance movement, and probably couldn't even communicate with Serbian and Croatian partisans for obvious linguistic reasons.

11. From the get-go in Poland, Polish Jews were executed in so-called reprisals without any evidence that they had resisted or helped resistance; they were killed as Jews, because they were Jews, and because the Nazis enjoyed tormenting and killing Jews. From the get-go, the Nazis instituted an antisemitic policy of exclusion and control, meaning that many punishments were exacted on Jews because they fell foul of petty by-laws and regulations applied exclusively to Jews, or which were a direct product of antisemitic ordinances. Executing smugglers caught leaving a ghetto isn't executing smugglers, it's executing people who have been forced into a ghetto because they were Jews.

12. The same consideration means every single ghetto death from starvation is a Holocaust death and not something that can be written off to 'there was a war going on', since the Jews were placed into ghettos deliberately, because they were Jews, and given lower rations, because they were Jews.

13. Likewise in Russia, Nazi units started killing Jews as Jews from the outset, blamed Jews for the resistance acts of other people, and fantasised about a Jewish partisan link that did not exist in 1941. By the time there actually were any Jewish partisans, then the Nazi intention to murder Jews en masse was pretty clear to all concerned, and thus resistance was no longer resistance in its own right, but a matter of survival.

14. Hungarian Jews were conscripted into labour battalions, being deemed unworthy of armed service. Thousands were captured in the destruction of the Hungarian 2nd Army in 1943, and died in Soviet captivity along with Hungarian soldiers. On the other hand, Hungarian Jews in labour battalions were also killed by Hungarian troops as well as Nazi soldiers, because they were Jews.

15. While Jews in the provinces of Hungary were deported en masse not long before the country became a battle-ground, the Jews of Budapest remained in place after Horthy called a halt. By late 1944 the Nazis decided to force march some of them out to Austria to work as slave labourers, but a large ghetto remained, protected to a very limited extent by Raoul Wallenberg and other diplomats. The Hungarian fascists, the Arrow Cross, formed gangs which tormented Jews in the ghetto and also carried out numerous massacres inside the city, which became besieged in 1945. Jews also died because of collateral damage in the siege. The latter are not Holocaust victims in my opinion.

16. Allied bombing in 1944-45 certainly did kill large numbers of foreign workers and concentration camp inmates, thus including Jews, eg a transport of Hungarian Jews being transferred from Auschwitz to Gelsenkirchen in the summer of 1944 was hit by an air raid, killing several hundred; and then there's the sinking of the Cap Arcona, which carried Neuengamme inmates, in 1945, by RAF planes. Numerically, such losses are still insignificant compared to deaths from other causes which can be considered deliberate acts by the Nazis; and they also occurred while the prisoners were in Nazi captivity, making them ultimately the Nazis' responsibility, just as Russian workers dying in Essen died because the Nazis deported them against their will to Essen, not because they chose to labour under Allied bombs.

17. Bottom line is, the Nazis behaved in such a racist and antisemitic fashion from the get-go in all occupied territories that they rapidly escalated to killing Jews qua Jews, reducing the chance that Jews would die for purely war-related reasons. But Jews did die because of war-related reasons. It's not as simple as saying that 5.1-5.3 million Jews died in the Holocaust and the balance died in the war to a total of 6 million. 200-300,000 'war casualties' maybe. Which compared to the population loss of Belgium at 88,000 out of nearly 9 million, is quite high.

17. Any further questions, read and dissect the information found in this Wiki entry, and follow up with reading the relevant entries for the Holocaust in Austria through Yugoslavia.

Edited by Locknar: 
SNIPed, breach of rule 0.
 
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