Founder of Sea Shepherd Arrested in Germany

[epepke]

Just because one opposes whaling doesn't mean that one has to approve of the actions of every jerk who also opposes it.

 

[Senex]

I've crewed on boats...

I consider myself careless...

That guy is RECKLESS.

It's OK to put yourself in harm's way - it is not OK to risk other people's lives (and some of the people on his boat are downright naive).

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

So this is where the Usual Suspects have been instead of the other animal thread.

Personally, I think there are more effective/meaningful ways of making progress on this issue.

 

[Checkmite]

Nice tie in to the thread topic, as Sea Shepherd assisted in the search for Berserk..

Glad to see they observe the obligations of a ship at sea every once in a while at least.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

What's with the 'don't need to' argument? If we're only going to eat food we really need, we'd all have a very bland diet. There's a lot of stuff out there that we don't need to eat.

See my previous post if you are having trouble thinking of ways in which harpooning humpbacks might be meaningfully different to slaughtering cows.

 

[Furcifer]

Your position is confusing to me in that I really don't see much of a distinction between what the Inuit do and the Japanese. I understand that some think whaling is always bad, a view I've held the majority of my life, but these two cultures are both trying to hold on to something they see as their respective heritage, perhaps a bad culture practice and I understand that argument but cultural nonetheless and they use similar excuses, I really don't see much difference.

One is commercial and one isn't. One is in international waters and one isn't. One is for personal use and one is for sale to the highest bidder.

If the Japanese want to commercially fish their own waters that's their right I suppose, but if they want to harvest marine mammals in international waters they should get 'international' permission. It just seems right.

 

[NoahFence]

It took me a couple of years to go through sixty pounds of whale meat. It is VERY strong, and you definitely know this thing came from the ocean. Bowhead.

Thus far not one of these shrill emotional defenders has been able to demonstrate any verifiable achievement by their superhero in actual conservation. It is pretty clear to me that he's doing what they want - not conservation, but just attacking people they hate.

They hate whalers, so anyone killing a whaler is their hero. I'm glad this thread has given them the opportunity to showcase their base, malicious character.

The Japanese quota is roughly 1,000 whales. The last two years, they have gone home well under that, and early to boot.

It's working.

 

[NoahFence]

Originally Posted by Checkmite
I mean this guy gets his boat and rams a Japanese whaler and it's claimed that this is "doing something"; but what really happened? Did the whaler stop and turn around and say "okay, we quit"?

Actually, yes. Two years in a row.

 

[NoahFence]

I think no matter how you feel about whaling in general, I think its fair to say that Japanese whaling has as much to do with research as the Sea Shepard does with whale conservation.

???

Help me here.

If the quota is 1,000 whales, and Sea Shepherd intervenes to the point where the culling is ended at say, 275 whales, did they not 'conserve' 725 whales?

 

[NoahFence]

I would actually love to take a vacation to Antarctica. I've applied (unsuccessfully) to get work at McMurdo and I have a few friends who've taken a cruise there. I'd take it over the tropics any day.

As would I - but I wouldn't spend my time on a ship in some of the worst seas on the planet and call it a vacation.

 

[NoahFence]

So this is where the Usual Suspects have been instead of the other animal thread.

Personally, I think there are more effective/meaningful ways of making progress on this issue.

Do tell.

 

[RandFan]

So dogs are not self aware, so their pain does not matter.

That's not my argument. You are conflating to separate premises but I admit that I have not been clear. I have argued for the position of *Temple Grandin that suffering is on a gradient. While I believe self-awareness is very likely important for how an animals experiences pain I do not hold that only self-aware animals suffer.

source When the structure of the brain and nervous system is studied, there is no black and white line between people and higher mammals such as chimps, dogs or cows. The genome project has shown that humans and mice share many genes (Gunter and Dhand, 2002). In mammals 30 to 40% of all genes are involved in nervous system development and function. The basic design of the nervous system and the neural mechanisms that process fear and pain are similar in humans and other mammals (Rogan and LeDoux, 1996). Colpaert et al. (2001) reported that rats will self medicate themselves with pain killers to relieve pain in arthritic joints.. Pain and fear both cause suffering. As nervous system and brain complexity increases the welfare needs of the animal increase and become more complex, but all animals that have sufficient nervous systems complexity to suffer from either pain or fear need basic welfare protections. Animals with complex brains also have greater social needs and a need for greater environmental enrichment.

 

[RandFan]

And what facts are those? Studies in dolphins and generalizing them to all whales is like a study in chimps and generalizing it to all primates. Show your work.

You are laboring under a misconception. I am countering the argument that "pain-is-pain". I posit that not all people experience pain similarly. I note that humans on average have both a sensory and emotional component to pain. The emotional component significantly increases the severity of the pain and the suffering. For some people pain is just an annoying sensation and they can endure pain more easily.

To the extent that inferences from dolphins are made for whales in general, it's not a hasty generalization because much study has been done on both whales and dolphins and they share many things in common including relative brain size, brain complexity, complex social behavior and communication. Scientists must often make these kinds of inferences because studying every species in depth is not possible. The inferences are not unreasonable. Your criticism is more typical of the anti-evolution crowd who seek only to make negative claims. In any event,

• I've not made any categorical claims about what whales feel or experience as it relates to pain.
• I do not claim that whales are entitled to rights or that it is immoral to kill them.
• I'm only arguing that there is a substantive difference between whales and other animals as it relates to cognitive capabilities.

The evidence I've posted is sufficient to establish my point. I've shown my work.

 

[Seismosaurus]

Really? Let's look at the video:



Look at the back of the Ady Gill from the beginning of the video to around 07 second mark. Virtually no prop wash, and the Japanese boat is well to the left of their vessel. Then look what happens around the 14-15 second mark. The prop wash dramatically increases, and the boat begins to move forward...right into the path of the Japanese vessel.

Oh yes, it's very clear in the footage. They deliberately rammed the whaling ship - and, as it turns out, later deliberately sank their own boat rather than saving it, so they could talk the incident up to the media.

 

[Checkmite]

One is commercial and one isn't. One is in international waters and one isn't. One is for personal use and one is for sale to the highest bidder.

No, the Inuit absolutely sell the meat. These aren't individuals going out and hunting whales expressly to feed their own families.

 

[Checkmite]

Actually, yes. Two years in a row.

Proof?

???

Help me here.

If the quota is 1,000 whales, and Sea Shepherd intervenes to the point where the culling is ended at say, 275 whales, did they not 'conserve' 725 whales?

Have the ships historically always taken exactly 1,000 whales? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing the number varies widely year by year.

 

[NoahFence]

Oh yes, it's very clear in the footage. They deliberately rammed the whaling ship - and, as it turns out, later deliberately sank their own boat rather than saving it, so they could talk the incident up to the media.

I'm sorry, but if you can't see the Shonan Maru turning HARD towards the Ady Gil, you really need glasses. The captain of the Ady Gil wasn't even piloting the ship. They were idling for chrissake.

I can understand you people not liking them, but to interpret this as anything other than the Japanese ship turning toward the Ady Gil and intentionally ramming it is beyond insane.

 

[NoahFence]

Proof?



Have the ships historically always taken exactly 1,000 whales? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing the number varies widely year by year.

Don't pretend the SSCS isn't doing anything. The Japanese themselves catagorically stated that they cut their culling short due to the actions of the Sea Shepherds. They've been taking fewer and fewer whales as the SSCS presence increases.

It's simple math.

 

[Checkmite]

Don't pretend the SSCS isn't doing anything. The Japanese themselves catagorically stated that they cut their culling short due to the actions of the Sea Shepherds.

Links?

 

[RandFan]

OWS could learn something from the whaling wars. They need some butyric acid.