Founder of Sea Shepherd Arrested in Germany

[Macgyver1968]

Is it enough that whales have a first-person point of view, and not only react to pain and environmental stimuli but experience it?

Dessi...you know I love you...but seriously, how is that different than other animal's pain? Lobsters are dropped into boiling water while they are still alive! Dude...you know that's gotta suck.. How is that different than any other animal that is killed to be eaten? At least whales are dead when they are cooked...unlike crabs, crayfish, and lobsters.

 

[RandFan]

Is it enough that whales have a first-person point of view, and not only react to pain and environmental stimuli but experience it?

What I would be interested to know is if the whales have an emotional component to pain. There are people who suffer a disconnect between pain centers in the brain and the centers for emotion. Similar to Capgras Syndrome this results in the individual being able to experience pain but not suffer severely for it. Often it is no more than a sensation. But, if that were the determining factor I would have to err on the side of the whale having an emotional component.

 

[applecorped]

Heh, this guy singlehanded turned me into a supporter of the whaling business with his TV show.

x2

 

[Marduk]

Dessi...you know I love you...but seriously, how is that different than other animal's pain? Lobsters are dropped into boiling water while they are still alive! Dude...you know that's gotta suck.. How is that different than any other animal that is killed to be eaten? At least whales are dead when they are cooked...unlike crabs, crayfish, and lobsters.

how many times is someone going to answer your posts with "sentience" before you look it up ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience#Animal_rights_and_sentience

 

[RandFan]

Dessi...you know I love you...but seriously, how is that different than other animal's pain? Lobsters are dropped into boiling water while they are still alive! Dude...you know that's gotta suck.. How is that different than any other animal that is killed to be eaten? At least whales are dead when they are cooked...unlike crabs, crayfish, and lobsters.

Temple Grandin makes the case that lower form animals lack the necessary neurological equipment to appreciate pain (see nervous system complexity). I agree with her. FWIW: Temple modernized many of the slaughtering facilities for cows so as to reduce stress ans suffering (cows have the neurological equipment to suffer from pain and stress).

 

[ponderingturtle]

The problem, and this is true for whales also, is that we don't quite know what that means as it relates to self awareness. It's just too easy to generalize from our own experiences. If you have seen the Terry Schivo pictures or videos you know that humans can appear to be aware and express some emotion when the medical and scientific community says that it is just not the case that they are truly aware or feeling complex emotions. The visual cues can be very misleading.

The difference with whales, I would argue, is in that there is greater potential given the relative brain size and perhaps even more important, degree of complexity.

And how many of the whales that are hunted are in species that have been tested to meet this criteria?

 

[RandFan]

And how many of the whales that are hunted are in species that have been tested to meet this criteria?

I don't know. Sorry.

 

[Macgyver1968]

how many times is someone going to answer your posts with "sentience" before you look it up ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience#Animal_rights_and_sentience

Dude...I know what sentience is. But I don't see it in the behavior of Minke or Pilot whales... Which is the main species being hunted by the Japanese in the Antarctic, and the villagers in the Faeroe Islands.

Species like the Blue whale, the Sperm Whale, and the Humpback whale should be protected because their numbers are few, and they take a long time to reproduce. But species of whale that are plentiful and not endangered should be game for cultures that depend on their bounty.

 

[Marduk]

But species of whale that are plentiful and not endangered should be game for cultures that depend on their bounty.

do the Japanese depend on their bounty ?

thats kind of admitting that theyre not hunting for research purposes isn't it

 

[RandFan]

Dude...I know what sentience is. But I don't see it in the behavior of Minke or Pilot whales... Which is the main species being hunted by the Japanese in the Antarctic, and the villagers in the Faeroe Islands.

Species like the Blue whale, the Sperm Whale, and the Humpback whale should be protected because their numbers are few, and they take a long time to reproduce. But species of whale that are plentiful and not endangered should be game for cultures that depend on their bounty.

do the Japanese depend on their bounty ?
thats kind of admitting that theyre not hunting for research purposes isn't it

I kinda think that Japan ought to follow international law. JMO. But I'm guessing that no one really buys into the notion that this is for research. I think it has to do with a market for whale and people wanting money. Last I looked the Japanese were not suffering a famine.

 

[Ryokan]

If you all had tasted whale meat, you would all cheer the whalers on.

Mmm, whale meat.

 

[Macgyver1968]

I'm still wondering why it's ok to kill one animal because it has lesser intelligence than another? If a whale is in fact more intelligent than a cow...does a whale feel more pain when it is slaughtered?

What about a lobster that's dropped in a pot of boiling water? Is the lobster's pain less significant than a whales? Who determines which animals are ok to kill...and which animals are not?

 

[Dessi]

Dessi...you know I love you...but seriously, how is that different than other animal's pain?

I don't think there's a credible distinction between any animals pain and another's, whether those animals belong to my species or another. I generally believe that that purposefully harming animals should be permitted only in the areas where it would be acceptable to inflict the same amount of harm on mentally similar humans.

Lobsters are dropped into boiling water while they are still alive! Dude...you know that's gotta suck.. How is that different than any other animal that is killed to be eaten? At least whales are dead when they are cooked...unlike crabs, crayfish, and lobsters.

I don't know what the scientific consensus is on lobster mental life, but I'm happy being a vegan for the rest of my life anyway

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

It took me a couple of years to go through sixty pounds of whale meat. It is VERY strong, and you definitely know this thing came from the ocean. Bowhead.

Thus far not one of these shrill emotional defenders has been able to demonstrate any verifiable achievement by their superhero in actual conservation. It is pretty clear to me that he's doing what they want - not conservation, but just attacking people they hate.

They hate whalers, so anyone killing a whaler is their hero. I'm glad this thread has given them the opportunity to showcase their base, malicious character.

 

[dirtywick]

My experiences with whale oil have been pretty stupid. Did you know they put it on the bearings of Phoropters? Like "is it better here, or here?" needs some heavy duty lubricant for plastic bearings.

I wouldn't mind eating a whale, but I mean the market for oil is at least partially artificial.

 

[Ryokan]

I wouldn't mind eating a whale, but I mean the market for oil is at least partially artificial.

If you're ever in Norway, I'll treat you. It tastes a lot like beef, just much more tender.

 

[Macgyver1968]

I don't think there's a credible distinction between any animals pain and another's, whether those animals belong to my species or another. I generally believe that that purposefully harming animals should be permitted only in the areas where it would be acceptable to inflict the same amount of harm on mentally similar humans.


I don't know what the scientific consensus is on lobster mental life, but I'm happy being a vegan for the rest of my life anyway

Well...Dessi..would you agree that slitting your throat and letting you bleed to death would be less painful than plunging you in boiling water why you are still alive?

Boiling alive is a really suck ass way to go...but lobsters, crab and crayfish suffer this fate everyday. Why aren't Sea Shepherd trying to stop this atrocity?

 

[RandFan]

I'm still wondering why it's ok to kill one animal because it has lesser intelligence than another? If a whale is in fact more intelligent than a cow...does a whale feel more pain when it is slaughtered?

I don't know that it is okay for one and not the other. I understand the arguments though. I don't mean to argue via link (I'm not a proponent anyway) but if you are sincerly interested see Practical Ethics. It's explained in 4 paragraphs.

 

[Macgyver1968]

I don't know that it is okay for one and not the other. I understand the arguments though. I don't mean to argue via link (I'm not a proponent anyway) but if you are sincerly interested see Practical Ethics. It's explained in 4 paragraphs.

The point I'm trying to make Rand, is that all animals feel pain when they are killed. Whales feel pain...Cows feel pain...Goats feel pain...Sheep feel pain. Pain is universal to almost all species. For Sea Shepherd to claim that the pain of whales is somehow greater and more significant...and their death is more significant...does not sit well with me.

 

[RandFan]

Well...Dessi..would you agree that slitting your throat and letting you bleed to death would be less painful than plunging you in boiling water why you are still alive?

Boiling alive is a really suck ass way to go...but lobsters, crab and crayfish suffer this fate everyday. Why aren't Sea Shepherd trying to stop this atrocity?

I guess I'm on your ignore list. I responded to this. I'm not an advocate of the Sea Shepherd but there is scientific evidence to explain the difference.