Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

Didn't you hear, Zimmerman was just picking up his mail.

Who said this Dan, or did you just make it up?

Can you make an argument without lying? I guess not...

 

[Dan O.]

Yeah you've said plenty of times that not wanting to show a person following you where your loved ones live is ridiculous. Some of us don't agree.

It's only necessary to look around and see how many of them have no problem telling us where they live. And this is just an Internet discussion. We're not even stalking them.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I think you are totally wrong. George's recorded call gives us a lot of information about where where George was that is inconsistent with George stopping at the dispatchers request. There is also the walkthrough the next morning as relayed by George's father that says he went on the Retrete View Circle before turning back and the location where they ended the altercation which is inconsistent with returning straight back to the truck. There will definitely be more evidence but it will be difficult to take away what we already know.

Still waiting for all that information from the call ...

 

[Dan O.]

Who said this Dan, or did you just make it up?

Can you make an argument without lying? I guess not...

This thread would be so much better if it we're moderated. Perhaps I should be reporting every violation of the user agreement.

This was on the very same page as my post. I'm surprised you missed it. (highlight added for you)

... Getting out of his truck put him in his very own common area. He was right down from where everyone stopped every day to pick up their mail, so it wasn't unusual for residents to be out an about in that area.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yeah you've said plenty of times that not wanting to show a person following you where your loved ones live is ridiculous. Some of us don't agree.

I understand some people don't agree.

I have yet to hear a good argument for *why* going home is a bad idea in general, and specifically would have been in this case. Especially in this case, it wasn't where TM and his loved ones lived.

It's worth pointing out, again, that running, TM could have been home in 12-15 seconds.

It's only necessary to look around and see how many of them have no problem telling us where they live. And this is just an Internet discussion. We're not even stalking them.

Because you believe those to be analogous situations?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I stated what I stated, people should use words like speculative when discussing hiding in bushes and the like.

Your angry face is strange, I merely said that people should label speculation as such, no where did I say anything about discussing.

Sometimes in these discussions, the 'perhaps this happened' or 'maybe then he ...' happens many posts back and the 'speculative part' is not put in every ensuing post.

Any discussion of why TM did not go straight home is likely to not be part of any court case, as they did not find a bag marked swag, as far as we know. I would say that such statements are foolish.

I would think the defense is going to have to account for why TM didn't go straight home and was therefor in a position to 'attack' GZ as claimed by GZ. I would also think they will want to convince the jury that TM could have gone home and chose not to, implying that he wasn't frightened of GZ. But, I am not attorney, so, IDK.

My comment is about people who are making the statement that TM hid and attacked GZ, which I now realize may not have been your statement.

No, it wasn't. But we were speculating on what TM did instead of going home for those few minutes.

 

[Dan O.]

Still waiting for all that information from the call ...

Wasn't it you that said you could hear the wind in the phone for 15 seconds after the operator told George he didn't need him to follow the suspect? I know George isn't very bright but does it really take 15 second for him to process that statement?

The copy of the tape you posted had been recompressed and has lost fidelity. The copy that was presented earlier was much better but I didn't save it. If you can find the original audio, you can hear the changing environments and use that to track George's progression. One of the easiest Markers to pull out will be the echo of George's own voice off the side of the buildings.

One of the keys that would greatly help presenting George's track is the precise location where George parked his truck. Without the starting point it's too easy to claim "could be's" to discredit the analysis. The location of the truck should be public knowledge. It was parked on the street and could not have been moved until after George was released by the police several hours later. By that time, reporters had been swarming all over the area. Maybe one of them will post a photo on a personal blog without knowing what they had like Barbie with her famous photo of the open cottage door at a sealed crime scene.

 

[WildCat]

This was on the very same page as my post. I'm surprised you missed it. (highlight added for you)

Please hilite the part where someone said Zimmerman was getting his mail, as you claimed. Remember when you said "Didn't you hear, Zimmerman was just picking up his mail"?

Are you going to retract your lie, or are you standing by it? Why do you have to lie Dan?

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

Don't leave your house today Andrew, people out there may be armed!

If I see someone outside my house 'circling' it, I believe that person is a criminal, and I've already called the police about it, you'd better believe I'm staying inside till they get there. That's because I have common sense and don't look for trouble.

This isn't a rhetorical thing either. I live in a relatively rough neighborhood and I call the police on average twice a year for prowlers. I've had my vehicles broken into, my gas siphoned, garage door kicked in. I don't confront said prowlers, even though I can guarantee you that unless they brought a military arsenal, I have them handily outgunned. It isn't prudent behavior, it can only serve to escalate the situation, and it makes it more, not less likely that someone will get hurt.

You're flogging this one pretty hard. How about you show a case where the police have advised someone, even neighborhood watch, to go out and confront or detain a prowler, before you act like it's prudent behavior.

 

[WildCat]

You're flogging this one pretty hard. How about you show a case where the police have advised someone, even neighborhood watch, to go out and confront or detain a prowler, before you act like it's prudent behavior.

Your evidence that Zimmerman went to confront Martin is...?

Oh, right, you just made that up. Have you met Dan O.?

 

[LTC8K6]

According to this account and timeline, GZ doesn't leave his truck until ~6 seconds after he says TM is running.

Assuming it's close to being accurate, that is.

If that's at all accurate, it would mean TM is long gone before GZ gets out of the truck.

It would mean that GZ can't be right behind TM, or even close to him. There's too much time between the "running" comment, and the truck door opening.

It would also mean that while GZ says he is following TM to the dispatcher, he's actually not anywhere him, and is only following TM in a general sense of the word.

Focus on the time between when GZ says TM is running, and GZ opens his truck door...

That can tell us whether GZ pursued TM or not, if we can pin down the timing.

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm pretty sure that if I claimed to have seen Bigfoot, and in being asked to provide evidence said my claim itself is evidence, few people here would accept that.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

GZ claim is quite mundane, and so far isn't contradicted by anything else we have evidence for. So I don't find it unreasonable to accept it.

You are skeptical of most of the individual claims in the chain of events. And by skeptical, I mean you don't believe it because there is no 'evidence'.
You don't believe TM confronted GZ.
You don't believe TM broke GZ nose.
You don't believe TM hit GZ head on the sidewalk.

And because you are being a good skeptic, you decline to propose a workable scenario of what may have happened, you just keep harping on the fact that no one can 'prove' exactly what happened in each specific claim. And if this were some abstract logic puzzle that you needed to solve by proving each step, I guess you would be spot on.

But GZ will not be found guilty if the prosecution cannot disprove his account. It's not going to work if they just focus on each element, like the broken nose, and say 'aha, but you can't prove it!'. You can get away with claiming you have no 'alternate theory' of what happened - but I don't think a jury will be impressed by a team of detectives who don't.

 

[LTC8K6]

Multiple witnesses who arrived after the shooting saw Zimmerman trying to stop Martin’s bleeding.

That is from Wagist, but it is unsourced.

Has anyone heard or read this?

 

[Rare Truth]

That is from Wagist, but it is unsourced.

Has anyone heard or read this?

Like most of the stuff on Wagist, it's bull crap.

 

[Dan O.]

I have yet to hear a good argument for *why* going home is a bad idea in general, and specifically would have been in this case. Especially in this case, it wasn't where TM and his loved ones lived.

What you choose to hear we have no control of. But we can present the same arguments over again as if that would help.

It is a fact that Trayvon was living (be it temporary) in that area. It is also a fact that his stepbrother did live there. Did Trayvon love his stepbrother? Would Trayvon walk to the store to get him a snack?

Three reasons have been presented in this thread for why Trayvon would not go home in the situation he found himself in:

1. Trayvon was being followed. George was out of his truck almost immediately after saying "he's running". It is highly likely that Trayvon could hear the car door and could look back to see George. If Trayvon didn't know or at least suspect he was being followed there would be no point in taking cover.
2. Trayvon may have perceived that George had an acomplis heading him off. It's undoubted that Trayvon would have seen George was on his phone while watching him from his truck. If there was an acomplis, running home would increase the chance of running into him.
3. The gun slingers have said in this thread that when you think you have safe cover you don't move. You can ignore this point as it's just an unfounded opinion and besides, Trayvon didn't have a gun so such rules may not apply.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I may have missed this, was this presented as testimony or potential testimony somewhere, it may have been. I am very likely to have missed it, or is it speculative?

Speculative. I just figure if someone is going to offer the same speculative point 100 times over I may as well offer the counter point.

 

[Dan O.]

Like most of the stuff on Wagist, it's bull crap.

The only such statement I recall is one witness saying they saw Trayvon face down in the grass and George was standing over him with one hand on Trayvon's back. It's the classic image after a cop makes a take-down just before cuffing the suspect.

This might have been interpreted as trying to stop the bleeding by applying direct pressure to the wound.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What you choose to hear we have no control of. But we can present the same arguments over again as if that would help.

It is a fact that Trayvon was living (be it temporary) in that area. It is also a fact that his stepbrother did live there. Did Trayvon love his stepbrother? Would Trayvon walk to the store to get him a snack?

No - if your facts are wrong, it doesn't help.
TM didn't live, even temporarily, in that area. That was Tracy Martins girlfriends house.

Chad wasn't TM step-brother.

 

[Rare Truth]

The only such statement I recall is one witness saying they saw Trayvon face down in the grass and George was standing over him with one hand on Trayvon's back. It's the classic image after a cop makes a take-down just before cuffing the suspect.

This might have been interpreted as trying to stop the bleeding by applying direct pressure to the wound.

Well, we have this witness account that saw Zimmerman stand up immediately.

The witness said the shots were audible as one man was on top of the other. But the witness recalled not having been able to see clearly which man was on top because it was dark.


Within a couple of seconds after the shots, one of the men "was walking toward where I was watching, and I could see him a little bit clearer. Could see that it was a Hispanic man. He didn't appear hurt or anything else."

That witness also noted Z did not appear hurt at all.

But the man, who by now had left the grass and was walking on the sidewalk, did seem worried, "with his hand up to his forehead," the witness said. "Now, a couple of seconds later, in the dark, you see that person that's alive walk away; you know, obviously, OK, he must've got up and he walked away, where the other person is still laying there, face down."


The person who was walking away did not appear hurt, said the witness, who has told police of the incident. "You're thinking, wow, I'm looking at the person that just shot someone," the witness said.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

 

[Dan O.]

According to this account and timeline, GZ doesn't leave his truck until ~6 seconds after he says TM is running.

In This audio, I count at most 3 seconds before the car door opens and you hear the chime. But as I've said before, that audio has been compressed. Maybe they compressed the time line too.

Of course, George could have just decided to get out of his truck and check his mail while he was stopped there and the suspect was gone. But why speculate on what George was dooing? Why doesn't someone just ask: George, are you following him?"