Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Unabogie]

The map goes with this (not mine)
http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/03/last-map-of-the-retreat-at-twin-lakes.html

I disagree with a number of things on that map, but the body was approx where that red circle is. Just below the T on the left side. And that is where you see it in the pic you linked to, just a little N of that red circle.

But the trees don't match from that angle. Which is why I am questioning the accuracy of that map.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

But the trees don't match from that angle. Which is why I am questioning the accuracy of that map.

The police report states the body was found between the 2 end townhouses. (1231 twin trees and 2821 retreat view).

Go to 1:32 in the video here:
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

Its the same shot, pulled back more:

 

[a_unique_person]

GZ apparently thought so, which is really all that will matter in court. (Or possibly not, if a judge/jury don't agree)

I was not there. I didn't see how TM was behaving. I don't know if I would have thought TM was a criminal.

It was not unreasonable, imo, for GZ to want to see where TM went.

He couldn't do that from the truck, even if he moved the truck, as far as I can tell.

So an unknown person is quite clearly following TM in the dark, for no apparent reason, other than the one GZ gives us, TM is an *******. I see no reason why TM wouldn't feel threatened, and wouldn't want this unkown person to know where he was living.

If we look at the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, you can't observe something without affecting it. "Just following" is not "just", it is just as likely to change the situation.

 

[Giz]

If we look at the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, you can't observe something without affecting it.

So when GZ knew that TM was faster than him he couldn't also know where TM was located? Physics!

I would love to see that tried in court. However I think that if the prosecution introduces the uncertainty principle the jury will probably be left with reasonable doubt.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

If we look at the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, you can't observe something without affecting it. "Just following" is not "just", it is just as likely to change the situation.

So IF TM attacked GZ, GZ is the one who actually affected it by attempting to observe TM?

 

[PhantomWolf]

So an unknown person is quite clearly following TM in the dark, for no apparent reason, other than the one GZ gives us, TM is an *******. I see no reason why TM wouldn't feel threatened, and wouldn't want this unkown person to know where he was living.

So instead of taking

option a) keep running or moving quickly away
option b) call the police while running or moving away

or...

option c) go to one of the other houses nearby and knock on the door

The best option is

d) hide and wait for four minutes to see if you're being followed and then confront your follower when they finally appear?

 

[Unabogie]

The police report states the body was found between the 2 end townhouses. (1231 twin trees and 2821 retreat view).

Go to 1:32 in the video here:
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

Its the same shot, pulled back more:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=26074http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_500444faae75a07701.jpg

You might be right, but I'm not convinced one way or the other. I think the actual locations are still unclear.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

So instead of taking

option a) keep running or moving quickly away
option b) call the police while running or moving away

or...

option c) go to one of the other houses nearby and knock on the door

The best option is

d) hide and wait for four minutes to see if you're being followed and then confront your follower when they finally appear?

Yep! I mean, if someone's following you and you didn't want them to know where you live, isn't that what you'd do? I mean suggesting that if they don't want the "stalker" to know where they live that the logical thing to do would be to get as far away as possible, back on a public street or to a store where there are people, that's just crazy . Unless of course you weren't actually afraid and had other intentions.

 

[Dan O.]

The map goes with this (not mine)
http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/03/last-map-of-the-retreat-at-twin-lakes.html

I disagree with a number of things on that map, but the body was approx where that red circle is. Just below the T on the left side. And that is where you see it in the pic you linked to, just a little N of that red circle.

If anybody gave a damn about these sorts of things they could use Google Sketchup to create a model of the area and use the built in photo matching tool to align the images and determine the actual camera positions with enough overlapping detail that nobody but a JREF skeptic^TM would question the result. I've done this befor but really don't want to put in the effort for the immature audience here to throw poo at.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You might be right, but I'm not convinced one way or the other. I think the actual locations are still unclear.

Well, that's pretty much where the police report, interviews and the rest of the Internet think the body is. It seems likely to me as well. YMMV

 

[Unabogie]

Well, that's pretty much where the police report, interviews and the rest of the Internet think the body is. It seems likely to me as well. YMMV

Fair enough.

 

[Mumbles]

Making things up is VERY different than relating a witness statement. Zimmerman is a witness. If you think you have evidence which conclusively shows his statement is unreliable, we are all ears. So far every attempt has failed to be conclusive, or was based on speculation.

The "John" Witness backs up part of Zimmerman's account, so does the 911 tapes, so does other witness statements. The physical evidence appears to also favor Zims story. I am sure we will see all the details soon, and even more speculation come out, but right this minute, does not look good for the narrative that Zim attacked Martin.

So far it appears Zimmerman's statement is intact, and well founded.

This is the problem.

Actually, Zimmerman's claim of how the fight started is flat-out bizarre. So Zimmerman, after completing his police call, wanders through the cut through, in order to look at a street sign that won't be there, on a street that he already knows the name of. He then begins to walk back to his truck, when a now angry Martin emerges from the south route, and angrily approaches him. Zimmerman, who has already identified him as "up to no good or on drugs", sees his angry approach, and then *drops his guard and likely his gaze*, to reach for his cell phone. Martin then punches him and knocks him down in one blow, and then straddles him and begins bashing his head on the concrete, even though this punch would have put Zimmerman north of the T-junction, where there is no concrete. Martin also tries to smother Zimmerman, who is clearly screaming despite being unable to breathe.

I'm sorry, I don't buy this one for a second, it simply makes no sense. Which is why I keep waiting for his actual statements to come out, instead of the various false and often contradictory leaks we've heard so far.

The only rebuttals have been that becuase he was armed he should have known better than to put himself in such a situation, or that becuase he was an adult he should have known better, or that becuase he was frustrated by criminals taking advantage of his neighborhood and wanted police to confront martin that he was deranged.

I knew better than to chase people around by the time I was twelve. Zimmerman apparently knew better as well, given his previous police calls, but chose to do it anyway.

 

[GWCarver]

Actually, Zimmerman's claim of how the fight started is flat-out bizarre. So Zimmerman, after completing his police call, wanders through the cut through, in order to look at a street sign that won't be there, on a street that he already knows the name of. He then begins to walk back to his truck, when a now angry Martin emerges from the south route, and angrily approaches him. Zimmerman, who has already identified him as "up to no good or on drugs", sees his angry approach, and then *drops his guard and likely his gaze*, to reach for his cell phone. Martin then punches him and knocks him down in one blow, and then straddles him and begins bashing his head on the concrete, even though this punch would have put Zimmerman north of the T-junction, where there is no concrete. Martin also tries to smother Zimmerman, who is clearly screaming despite being unable to breathe.

I'm sorry, I don't buy this one for a second, it simply makes no sense. Which is why I keep waiting for his actual statements to come out, instead of the various false and often contradictory leaks we've heard so far.



I knew better than to chase people around by the time I was twelve. Zimmerman apparently knew better as well, given his previous police calls, but chose to do it anyway.

You know there is no evidence available to us that shows Zimmerman was chasing TM around.

How do you think TM ended up on the end of the sidewalk where Zimmerman is known to have been talking to the police instead of the other end where he would have been safe?

 

[johnny karate]

The burden of proof is squarely on the accuser. What evidence contradicts the statement? If none then there is no case. This has nothing to do with belief, we can still believe any narrative we want, or not believe any of them and remain skeptical, but a conviction requires more.

Innocent until proven guilty and all that . . . .

Uh huh... that's terrific. This was your statement to which I was responding:

You have failed to create a conclusive narrative that refutes Zimmerman's statement.

Does your understanding of "innocent until proven guilty" mean we have to automatically believe everything the defendant says? Or is there another reason you think anyone here need refute Zimmerman?

 

[johnny karate]

Well, since that was the statement he gave immediately after the incident....

I'm not sure what your point here is. Are you contending that it's not possible for Zimmerman to have lied immediately?

...and since someone saw M on top of Z and since he did have a bloody head to back it up, I would say that's the logical conclusion.

No, the logical conclusion is that Zimmerman struck his head on something. It would take a leap of logic to assume Martin bashed Zimmerman's head on the pavement because there's no evidence that actually occurred.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

And just how would Zimmerman know Martin was unarmed? Psychic powers?

If GZ didn't know TM wasn't armed, then he crossed an even greater boundry of common sense and prudent behavior by leaving his truck rather than leaving IN the truck.

 

[GWCarver]

If GZ didn't know TM wasn't armed, then he crossed an even greater boundry of common sense and prudent behavior by leaving his truck rather than leaving IN the truck.

The operator had told Zimmerman twice to let him know if TM did anything else. With the cops on the way, and TM off and running, it is entirely probable that he simply wanted to see where TM was heading so he could inform the police when they arrived. But, he lost track of TM, and thought he was gone, probably through the opening in the back entrance. You know, "these ** always get away".

It is not like Zimmerman was in a combat zone or a distant city, he was in his own neighborhood. Getting out of his truck put him in his very own common area. He was right down from where everyone stopped every day to pick up their mail, so it wasn't unusual for residents to be out an about in that area. The "he should have stayed in the truck" straw man is getting old and is a very flimsy one at that. TM running, in any other scenario, would be called by police "consciousness of guilt", and would give Zimmerman and the police even more reason to believe he was a bad guy, NOT A RESIDENT of the community. It would also cause Zimmerman to believe TM wasn't a physical threat because he was running away.

But, TM doubled back and got into it with an armed man. Big mistake. Criminals in Memphis do dumb stuff like this all of the time. Maybe I'll do a top ten list of Memphis' dumbest criminals and their pathetic attempts a pulling off the perfect crimes.

So, Andrew, how much longer do you think Zimmerman should have screamed and fought for the gun before using lethal force? It would be nice to hear it in minutes and seconds. Precise timing is important in life or death situations.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I'm not sure what your point here is. Are you contending that it's not possible for Zimmerman to have lied immediately?

My problem with him having lied immediately is that I don't think he's smart enough to come up with a lie that matched witnesses and could be repeated multiples times to different people, and remain consistant, yet he seems to have done that if you assume he's lying.

No, the logical conclusion is that Zimmerman struck his head on something. It would take a leap of logic to assume Martin bashed Zimmerman's head on the pavement because there's no evidence that actually occurred.

This is incorrect. There is evidence, you just don't accept it as true, but that doesn't mean it's not evidence. GZ's witness statment is evidence whether you like it or not.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

My problem with him having lied immediately is that I don't think he's smart enough to come up with a lie that matched witnesses and could be repeated multiples times to different people, and remain consistant, yet he seems to have done that if you assume he's lying.

This is HUGE. It's exceptionally difficult to lie about this type of thing and be consistent about it. Yet after 4 hours of questioning without an attorney and reenacting the event on video, the first prosecutor decided there was no evidence to prosecute. On top of it his statements just happened to coincide with information as well as eyewitness testimony he could not possible have known existed.

On top of it, so far as I have seen, every bit of the story makes sense and "fits". People just hate it because they don't want to believe it, and therefore convince themselves it's unbelievable.

 

[RandFan]

Getting out of his truck put him in his very own common area.

Perfectly reasonable given that TM was a suspicious person that GZ said he was scared of. How did that work out for him?