Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

My problem with him having lied immediately is that I don't think he's smart enough to come up with a lie that matched witnesses and could be repeated multiples times to different people, and remain consistant, yet he seems to have done that if you assume he's lying.

His lie didn't "match witnesses" as no one witnessed Martin bashing his head onto the ground. And I don't see how difficult it is to repeat a lie. Especially when no one knows what went on during the questioning at the police station. We have no idea how hard he was interrogated. For all we know, the police were predisposed to believe his story and were therefore very accommodating.

This is incorrect. There is evidence, you just don't accept it as true, but that doesn't mean it's not evidence. GZ's witness statment is evidence whether you like it or not.

You're not the first person to make this point, and quite frankly, it's a stupid one.

We're not in a court of law, so the term "evidence" isn't being used in the legal sense. (And even if we were, Zimmerman's testimony only becomes evidence if he actually testifies. If he doesn't take the stand - and no other evidence surfaces that Martin bashed his head on the ground - there will be no evidence that it happened. It doesn't automatically become evidence just because Zimmerman claimed it.)

I'm pretty sure that if I claimed to have seen Bigfoot, and in being asked to provide evidence said my claim itself is evidence, few people here would accept that.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Perfectly reasonable given that TM was a suspicious person that GZ said he was scared of. How did that work out for him?

Better evidently than deciding to hide and then attack and beat GZ turned out for TM. You can repeat the same point 1000 times but it was not crazy behavior as you'd like to make out for GZ to think after TM ran off that he could see from afar if TM was still loitering somewhere. Imprudent perhaps with 20/20 hindsight, but not crazy.

 

[GWCarver]

Perfectly reasonable given that TM was a suspicious person that GZ said he was scared of. How did that work out for him?

TM was the one who was running. GZ was trying to locate him for the police.

 

[RandFan]

TM was the one who was running. GZ was trying to locate him for the police.

• Facts not in evidence.
• GZ thought TM was suspicious.
• GZ said he was scared of TM.
• TM is dead.

So, again, perfectly reasonable.

 

[Rare Truth]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf
My problem with him having lied immediately is that I don't think he's smart enough to come up with a lie that matched witnesses and could be repeated multiples times to different people, and remain consistant, yet he seems to have done that if you assume he's lying.

This is HUGE. It's exceptionally difficult to lie about this type of thing and be consistent about it. Yet after 4 hours of questioning without an attorney and reenacting the event on video, the first prosecutor decided there was no evidence to prosecute. On top of it his statements just happened to coincide with information as well as eyewitness testimony he could not possible have known existed.

On top of it, so far as I have seen, every bit of the story makes sense and "fits". People just hate it because they don't want to believe it, and therefore convince themselves it's unbelievable.

I don't think it's *huge* at all. We know from testimony GZ was there with a number of witnesses right there at the scene right after the incident.

O'MARA: Would it be safe to assume then in giving him, and him giving that statement to the police wherein he said one, "I turned around and went back to my car"; and two, that he did not start the fight and that he was assaulted by Mr. Martin. When he gave that statement, did he have any indication that there were or were not half a dozen witnesses who saw the whole thing?

GILBREATH: I have no knowledge of that. I don't know what --

O'MARA: any insight you can give us as to --

(CROSSTALK)

GILBREATH: I have no indication what he picked up from other officers at the scene. I know from reading reports there were witnesses gathered around while he was still at the scene. And this was prior to their having statements taken from them. So I don't know what he picked up from overheard conversations.​

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

 

[This is The End]

I don't understand the whole 'my address is a secret' thing either. If the choice is between the safety of your home, or choosing to not reveal your address and staying in danger, you choose to not reveal your address ? Because you think anyone who follows you is going to do what ... come back and murder you later ? Especially if you don't even really live there ? That's ridiculous.

Yeah you've said plenty of times that not wanting to show a person following you where your loved ones live is ridiculous. Some of us don't agree.

 

[This is The End]

Making things up is VERY different than relating a witness statement. Zimmerman is a witness.

Technically you are correct. But normally we don't call the person on trial for murder a witness.

 

[a_unique_person]

So when GZ knew that TM was faster than him he couldn't also know where TM was located? Physics!

I would love to see that tried in court. However I think that if the prosecution introduces the uncertainty principle the jury will probably be left with reasonable doubt.

No, I just said, you can't observe something without affecting it. Usually at macroscopic sizes, the effect is quite small and negligable, but in this case, it was very apparent. By following TM, GZ changed the course of events that night, and turned a trip to the store into a killing. We know that GZ was prejudiced to TM, because he called him an *******.

 

[This is The End]

I knew better than to chase people around by the time I was twelve. Zimmerman apparently knew better as well, given his previous police calls, but chose to do it anyway.

We have evidence as to why Z may have made that change if he did. In previous calls to the not911 where he did not maintain visual of the suspicious person(s) they were gone by the time the police arrived.

We have a good idea that Z didn't want that to happen again because we have him on tape saying "these ******** always get away" during his surveillance of M.

It is reasonable to conclude that Z kept a closer watch on this suspicious person than he had on previous ones.

That also may explain why, as RandFan keeps asking, if Z was (admittedly) "afraid"* why did he get out of his truck.

*(Or was it "scared" I don't remember offhand.)

 

[RandFan]

We have evidence as to why Z may have made that change if he did. In previous calls to the not911 where he did not maintain visual of the suspicious person(s) they were gone by the time the police arrived.

We have a good idea that Z didn't want that to happen again because we have him on tape saying "these ******** always get away" during his surveillance of M.

It is reasonable to conclude that Z kept a closer watch on this suspicious person than he had on previous ones.

That also may explain why, as RandFan keeps asking, if Z was (admittedly) "afraid"* why did he get out of his truck.

*(Or was it "scared" I don't remember offhand.)

Thanks, I think the tone of my statement has colored my point. It wasn't a question it was a bit of advice. In such instances, stay in your car. I will admit that it is in fact rhetorical. I think GZs actions reckless. Assuming for the moment that I'm correct then the question then becomes, should a reasonable person have known that it was reckless? I think it's along the lines of drunk driving. There was a time when it was difficult to get convictions for DUI manslaughter because of ignorance on the part of the driver. It is no longer the case.

IMO: Now that we have SYG then we need to make clear, like we did for DUI, that actions have consequences and that people with guns should accept some personal responsibility. Ignorance ought not be an excuse. GZ may very well have innocently left his truck armed that evening but in my opinion his actions were reckless. JMO. YMMV.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'm not sure what your point here is. Are you contending that it's not possible for Zimmerman to have lied immediately?



No, the logical conclusion is that Zimmerman struck his head on something. It would take a leap of logic to assume Martin bashed Zimmerman's head on the pavement because there's no evidence that actually occurred.

We can entirely dismiss what GZ said. We don't need his testimony.

We have a witness that's pretty sure TM was beating up GZ. Perhaps two witnesses.

Logically, that's how GZ was injured.

 

[kedo1981]

When GZ said
"these ******** always get away"
What did he actually say?
It’s been held up a proof of GZ’z “prejudice,
But if he said “a-hole” “SOB’s” “Bastards” is that proof of a white man hunting down a black man like so many here are arguing.
It’s kind of unlikely he used racial slurs when talking to the police dispatch.

 

[LTC8K6]

If GZ believes that TM is an intruder who does not live there, and GZ believes that TM got away via the back entrance on Retreat View Circle, it would mean that when GZ gets out of his truck, or shortly thereafter, he thinks TM has probably left the compound.

If GZ thinks TM is running for the back entrance, it would be safe for GZ to exit his truck, because TM is either leaving the compound, or has already left the compound.

GZ would be going to see which way TM went on Retreat View.

 

[Dancing David]

That's true. Should we not speculate or discuss theories and timeline and such until then ? That would be a long wait.

A number of posters have pointed out the horrors of having a bad man who pursues you know where you live, and have supposed that TM hid instead of going home.

Therefore, I was just drawing the conclusion that cowering in the bushes is preferable to being home safe and having a scary man know your home address.
Disagree ?

I stated what I stated, people should use words like speculative when discussing hiding in bushes and the like.

Your angry face is strange, I merely said that people should label speculation as such, no where did I say anything about discussing.

Any discussion of why TM did not go straight home is likely to not be part of any court case, as they did not find a bag marked swag, as far as we know. I would say that such statements are foolish.

My comment is about people who are making the statement that TM hid and attacked GZ, which I now realize may not have been your statement.

 

[Dancing David]

Better evidently than deciding to hide and then attack and beat GZ turned out for TM.

I may have missed this, was this presented as testimony or potential testimony somewhere, it may have been. I am very likely to have missed it, or is it speculative?

(Up until yesterday I was reviewing for an exam)

 

[Dan O.]

Ignorance ought not be an excuse. GZ may very well have innocently left his truck armed that evening but in my opinion his actions were reckless. JMO. YMMV.

Didn't you hear, Zimmerman was just picking up his mail. It's natural for people to get out of their cars in that area. He could have been walking his dog and had every right to be walking his dog in the dog walk area. Maybe he has two dogs that poop a lot so he calls them his ********. It makes perfect sense that he would talk about "those ******** always get away" while setting out to look for them.

 

[Rare Truth]

I may have missed this, was this presented as testimony or potential testimony somewhere, it may have been. I am very likely to have missed it, or is it speculative?

(Up until yesterday I was reviewing for an exam)

There's no evidence of that. It's speculative.

 

[Rare Truth]

Didn't you hear, Zimmerman was just picking up his mail. It's natural for people to get out of their cars in that area. He could have been walking his dog and had every right to be walking his dog in the dog walk area. Maybe he has two dogs that poop a lot so he calls them his ********. It makes perfect sense that he would talk about "those ******** always get away" while setting out to look for them.

Such a very strange post.

 

[WildCat]

If GZ didn't know TM wasn't armed, then he crossed an even greater boundry of common sense and prudent behavior by leaving his truck rather than leaving IN the truck.

Don't leave your house today Andrew, people out there may be armed!

 

[WildCat]

• Facts not in evidence.

The fact is in evidence. Zimmerman says he ran, Martin's girlfriend said he told her he ran.