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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Clayton Moore said:
Nope. Team Holocaust has the German military managing, guarding, feeding 5 to 10 million prisoners while fighting and losing a 3 front, land, sea, and air war.
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Your original comment was so vaguely expressed it was entirely unclear wtf you were on about. Now you express incredulity about the fact that Nazi Germany took prisoners of war. Really?

Seriously, are you drunk or high?

Please note that it's not "Team Holocaust" who say that Nazi Germany took large numbers of prisoners of war during WWII. It's every frakking observer of WWII, including the entire population of every European country invaded by the Nazis alive and conscious during the 1940s.

Guarding prisoners of war did not require vast numbers of guards. Those guards were generally older and less fit for frontline service. The Wehrmacht probably deployed a couple of hundred thousand members of the Landesschuetzen, who were the equivalent of the British Home Guard, usually aged in their 30s to 50s. Not ideal frontline combat troops.

Once POWs were held in Germany, then they could be put to work. They were not all sitting around Stalag Luft III dreaming up escape plans. POWs were forced to work in agriculture, industry and on many other tasks, replacing German men who were called up to fight.

Both the use of POW labour as well as the use of foreign civilian labour by the Nazis meant that Nazi Germany could prolong the war by using a higher proportion of German military age males at the front, replacing the very heavy casualties suffered on the Eastern Front.

Nazi Germany could also produce more, since the labour force for critical armaments industries could be reinforced with POWs, foreign civilian workers, and concentration camp inmates. By 1942 foreigners and POWs were making a very large contribution to the Nazi war effort.

Please, do continue to express your incredulity about all this. It's most entertaining, and if you continue to express your patented incredulity, it will mean you will end up insulting the British, American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, South African, French, Dutch, Belgian, Italian, Czech, Yugoslav, Greek, Polish, Russian, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian. Latvian, Estonian, Norwegian and Danish peoples. In other words much of the Christian world.
 
Nick Terry said:
*snip*
Please note that it's not "Team Holocaust" who say that Nazi Germany took large numbers of prisoners of war during WWII. It's every frakking observer of WWII, including the entire population of every European country invaded by the Nazis alive and conscious during the 1940s.

*snip*

Please, do continue to express your incredulity about all this. It's most entertaining, and if you continue to express your patented incredulity, it will mean you will end up insulting the British, American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, South African, French, Dutch, Belgian, Italian, Czech, Yugoslav, Greek, Polish, Russian, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian. Latvian, Estonian, Norwegian and Danish peoples. In other words much of the Christian world.
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Let´s not forget the Germans themselves. Not even they denied taking prisoners of war, or using them as labor.
 
TSR said:
The more important question is: does it matter to the historicity of the Holocaust if he does or if he doesn't?

And the answer is "no".

Do you really believe no one sees the fact that you cannot stick to a subject when yo've been shown to be wrong about it and admit your error like an honourable being would?

Is there a reason other than the obvious that you cannot?
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Once again we're informed that the lies at the very top and instigation of the Team Holocaust food chain, Elie and his Night don't matter. The lies that on Oprah that stirred the world's Holocaust rage against millions of imaginary German psychopaths into a frenzy of indignation. Story after heart wrenching, blood curdling story found untrue.

Team Holocaust is like the martyred wife who coaches her young children to falsely testify that her husband molested them.

Team Holocaust perpetuation of lies and the avid willingness of the public to become a united front against falsely accused people is eerily similar to daycare sex-abuse hysteria.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria#cite_note-10

False testimonies by people with an agenda are easily conjured up, distributed, and ferociously believed.

Interviewer bias also plays a role in shaping child testimony. When an interviewer has a preconceived notion as to the truth of the matter being investigated, the questioning is conducted in a manner to extract statements that support these beliefs.[57] As a result, evidence that could disprove the belief is never sought by the interviewer. Additionally, positive reinforcement by the interviewer can taint child testimony. Often such reinforcement is given to encourage a spirit of cooperation by the child, but the impartial tone can quickly disappear as the interviewer nods, smiles, or offers verbal encouragement to "helpful" statements.[57] Some studies show that when interviewers make reassuring statements to child witnesses, the children are more likely to fabricate stories of past events that never occurred.[55]

Peer pressure also influences children to fabricate stories. Studies show that when a child witness is told that his or her friends have already testified that certain events occurred, the child witness was more likely to create a matching story.[66] The status of the interviewer can also influence a child's testimony — the more authority an interviewer has such as a police officer, the more likely a child is to comply with that person's agenda.[67]
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Clayton Moore said:
Once again we're informed that the lies at the very top and instigation of the Team Holocaust food chain, Elie and his Night don't matter. The lies that on Oprah that stirred the world's Holocaust rage against millions of imaginary German psychopaths into a frenzy of indignation. Story after heart wrenching, blood curdling story found untrue.

Team Holocaust is like the martyred wife who coaches her young children to falsely testify that her husband molested them.

Team Holocaust perpetuation of lies and the avid willingness of the public to become a united front against falsely accused people is eerily similar to daycare sex-abuse hysteria.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria#cite_note-10

False testimonies by people with an agenda are easily conjured up, distributed, and ferociously believed.
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Could you answer a simple question. Eichman stated himself in his testimony that he knew of the final solution and that he felt it was a bad thing. Germans have admitted to witnessing a lot of atrocities that you insist never happened.

Are you suggesting that everyone in the world is conspiring to create a false story and only a handful of people like you are seeing through it?

Because frankly that's pretty insane.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Once again we're informed that the lies at the very top and instigation of the Team Holocaust food chain, Elie and his Night don't matter.
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And just *who* appointed this person "the very top" of the "Holocaust food chain" and at whose instigation?
Clayton Moore said:
The lies that on Oprah that stirred the world's Holocaust rage against millions of imaginary German psychopaths into a frenzy of indignation. Story after heart wrenching, blood curdling story found untrue.
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None of which change the history of this ear by one bit.

But it's a convenient way for you to avoid actually learning about that history so you can pretend your ignorant denial *does* matter.
Clayton Moore said:
Team Holocaust is like the martyred wife who coaches her young children to falsely testify that her husband molested them.
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Really? Could you please enlighten us on whom this "Team Holocaust" is?

Because you seem have been using it to describe those who point out your ignorance here --- AND NOT ONE OF US HAS COACHED, EXCUSED OR CITED Wiesel.
Clayton Moore said:
Team Holocaust perpetuation of lies and the avid willingness of the public to become a united front against falsely accused people is eerily similar to daycare sex-abuse hysteria.
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Just who has been falsely accused here, CM?
Clayton Moore said:
False testimonies by people with an agenda are easily conjured up, distributed, and ferociously believed.
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You seem to have left out the part where you actually *prove* those testimonies false.

Do look up the definition of the word "testimony" as it applies to history and jump through your hoops to pretend the existence of a single tattoo makes any more difference to the normative understanding of these events than you do yourself.
 
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Dogzilla said:
Do you know that there aren't any Nazi war criminals who admitted to gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz? No Nazi war criminal was ever charged with gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz. Nobody has ever been convicted in a court of law or punished in any way for gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz.

Am I a holocaust denier for saying this?

On the other hand, there is compelling evidence that 4.5 million Poles, Russians, Czechs, French, Belgians, Dutch, American, and other nationalities (but not Jews) were gassed at Auschwitz. There are people who were arrested and prosecuted for supplying the Zyklon B that was used for committing this crime. None of the defendants charged with this crime denied that it occurred. Two men were convicted and executed specifically for supplying the murder weapon that was used for committing this crime. .

If I said that 4.5 million Poles, Russians, Czechs, French, Belgians, Dutch, American, and other nationalities (but not Jews) were not gassed at Auschwitz, would I be a holocaust denier?

If I said that Nazi Germany intended the physically exterminate all the Jews in Europe but that nobody was killed in a gas chamber, am I denying the holocaust?

If I said that Nazi Germany murdered six million Jews but the five million non-Jews that some people say were murdered in the holocaust is a fantasy, would I be a holocaust denier?

Is the evidence of gas chambers the same evidence that proves the Nazi plan to kill every Jew in Europe?

Are you seeing a trend?
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Yes, you are a holocaust denier for saying this.

You're setting up an expectation of consequences that SHOULD have happened if the holocaust happened, but the suggestion is clear from you - no admissions, no arrests, no trials, no convictions? No holocaust.

Foolish, boilerplate denier "scholarship".
 
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Nick Terry said:
This is a serious question, Clayton: you were pulling our legs, weren't you? I mean, you are just trolling here, right?

Surely nobody could possibly be so stupid as to wonder how come a country of 200 million people (the Soviet Union) could take losses of more than 20 million and still beat a country of 80 million people (Germany).

Unless....
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Especially when the Nazis repeated Napoleon's mistake of trying to invade Russia in the winter, which had the fatal effect of opening two war fronts.
 
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Bluespaceoddity said:
http://weblogs.nos.nl/binnenlandredactie/2012/05/04/het-onbekende-concentratiekamp-warschau/

After noticing this story among Remembrance Day coverage I just finished reading all related articles I could find online and listened to a few reports like that. Didn't see those specific articles in English yet but they're about groups of KL inmates who were transferred to Warsaw in the aftermath of the Jewish ghetto revolt there. These people were forced to collect any useful material that could be retrieved from the ruins of the ghetto. It was the first time I became aware there had been Dutch people among these forced labor details in Warsaw. Next year a monument will be erected in their memory. Few of them survived.

Turns out there are indications that Esther "Etty" Hillesum's brother Michael "Mischa" Hillesum may not have died in Auschwitz but may have perished in Warsaw as part of these forced labor details. Looks like I'll have to read more than the articles to find out what the grounds are for this revision. The book: Mischa's spel, En de ondergang van de familie Hillesum apparently came out in January of his year. One more life described in more detail. one more Shoah death recorded with more precision. I don't have a large private library but this book will soon be added for that purpose.

When are you going to tell me anything I didn't know before, Clayton Moore? I told Snaketongue he had my attention but can you give me a reason why I should continue reading his messages, or yours? Why do you expect to hold my attention? I could have been using the time it took to read your forum contributions and the time it took to write this comment to look for additional reports about that news from Warsaw. An example like that confirms for me that regular historical research continues and that regular historians will let their research take them where the evidence directs them. What purpose do you serve?

Mischa Hillesum's hand written notations were rediscovered in the archives and this sheet music was used to prepare for recent performances of his music, like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV6dav7DGRE&feature=relmfu

Apparently these are the only two nearly complete compositions Mr. Hillesum left behind. Did he continue composing after 1945? Do you have any indication that he himself performed his ow music in public after 1945? Concerts in Vienna under an assumed name? Recitals on the North-American circuit, perhaps, using a new identity? Did he settle in Israel? Iran? Did Mischa Hillesum give up music all together for fear of discovery of his new identity after the end of the 12 year reich? During the nazi occupation of the netherlands he performed semi-private concerts illegally after Jewish artists were banned from public venues. That is a form of resistance. Just as his sister Etty kept writing in defiance*. Just as David Koker's diary entries were regularly smuggled out of the camps by those who sought additional methods for coping with oppression.

There was a variety of responses to persecution and mass murder. They've been mentioned in replies to your comments and in the referenced materials. You are as incapable of honestly summarizing those sources as you are incapable of honestly summarizing the commentary of other JREF posters. What is the spectrum of individual responses to nazi oppression you can acknowledge? On one end Anna "Ans" van Dijk can be placed -for her betrayal of onderduikers- and on the other end of the spectrum could be the person -not mentioned by name, only as "een jood" [a Jew]- who knocked SDer C.B. Hansen's teeth out while resisting arrest.

Since you apparently object to financial compensation you'll be glad to know that, according to the document, C.B. Hansen was not reimbursed for the dental treatment, dry cleaning bill for his blood stained clothes, nor for the loss of his hat and that he was not allowed to replace his blood stained shirt and raincoat by selecting those items of clothing from the inventory of Jewish property he had helped loot. That's what he proposed in his September 25, 1942 report filed in his capacity as an SD "Hausraterfassung" operative. His public health insurance did cover the doctors bill according to this report.
The last example from a collection of original documents I'm hoping Snaketongue has found by now.

* The writing of Etty Hillesum has been described as an act of resistance by Rachel Brenner. Do you disagree with her? Is violence the only response that qualifies as resistance? You mentioned union workers. LemmyCaution has invited you to explore that a bit. Will you? What do you think that statue on the Jonas Daniel Meijer square in Amsterdam symbolizes? What do you think Mari Andriessen saw as his inspiration? Too many "galley/quarry slave scenes".

In what respects do Jews differ from normal persons, Clayton Moore?
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Originally Posted by Bluespaceoddity View Post
http://weblogs.nos.nl/binnenlandreda...kamp-warschau/

After noticing this story among Remembrance Day coverage . . ..
In what respects do Jews differ from normal persons, Clayton Moore?
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LemmyCaution
Stunningly great post, BSO. Thanks.
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LemmyCaution gurgles Stunningly great post, BSO. Thanks.
Then, thrusting akimbo, repeats Bluespaceoddity's poignant mental reservation In what respects do Jews differ from normal persons, Clayton Moore?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
It's amusing that the Holocaustics refuse to admit that Jewish people would have retaliated with measured and unmeasured violence if they were subjected to the horrors of the Holocaust myth. The guards and all camp personal would been under siege 24/7. The Jewish people would have reacted like normal persons in the midst of rampant savagery and terror.

And meaningful labor? Like that would happen in the midst of rampant savagery and terror.

I think the Holocaustics watched too many galley/quarry slave scenes when they were kids.
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Notice how a question is asked by Bluespaceoddity that completely bastardizes my statement. Good work Bluespaceoddity.
 
In a book I am reading I came across this rather simple sentence, expressing a rather simple idea in relation to the German conquest of Ukraine: "The Einsatzgruppen immediately started open-air massacres of Jews, Roma/Gypsies, psychiatric patients, real and imagined partisans, and any other 'suspect' persons."

This simple statement, with its non-difficult, pedestrian idea (that people and groups can have multiple aims and do more than one thing during a period of time, reminded me of an earlier denier fumble as bad as any recent gaffes Clayton's made: one of our deniers has tried on more than one occasion to argue that if anyone wants to condemn the Nazis for setting up special units to scour the countryside and execute Jews for being Jews, he will need to explain away all the evidence of the Einsatzgruppen engaged in activities other than killing the Jews.

In this denier's special treatment of the world and evidence, that the EGs, for instance, murdered the so-called incurables in hospitals disproves that they also had an aim of exterminating Jews and that the Holocaust is therefore a fiction.

This denier is obviously ignorant of Nazi ideology and aims in the war of conquest and extermination in the east. But more than that, this denier is unable to think coherently about human agency as a whole, so blinded is he by his need to negate Nazi crimes. To deny and negate, he will fabricate a world in which if a person or group does one thing, it proves that they could not also have done something else.

What an obtuse and pathetic argument, reliant as it is on either a presumed negationist predisposition of readers or a total lack of understanding of human beings and human activity. None of our deniers in this thread has earned even a good try or indeed any kind of entree into serious discussion of these issues, presenting such foolishness as they do as an argument.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
LemmyCaution gurgles Stunningly great post, BSO. Thanks.
Then, thrusting akimbo, repeats Bluespaceoddity's poignant mental reservation In what respects do Jews differ from normal persons, Clayton Moore?
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Whatever this refers to or means.

Clayton Moore said:
Notice how a question is asked by Bluespaceoddity that completely bastardizes my statement. Good work Bluespaceoddity.
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Except that you continually create a strawman and caricature you call "normal people" which is actually an abnormal standard - heroism at all costs, omniscience and mind-reading ability, the power to overturn any force - and measure Jews in the camps and ghettos by your abnormal standard. BSO's point stands, Clayton, and your abnormal reading of people and situations remains laughable and clearly of obfuscatory intent.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
The Jewish people would have reacted like normal persons in the midst of rampant savagery and terror.
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You mean like the Tutsis?

The Armenians?

The Darfur?

The Cambodians?

The Rwandans?

The Bosnians?

The Ukranians?

The Ainu?

The Amerinds?

The Tasmanians?

I could, unfortunately, keep going all night...

Just how many of these were characterized by the kind of insurrection you condemn the Jews for not employing?
 
LemmyCaution said:
Whatever this refers to or means.

Except that you continually create a strawman and caricature you call "normal people" which is actually an abnormal standard - heroism at all costs, omniscience and mind-reading ability, the power to overturn any force - and measure Jews in the camps and ghettos by your abnormal standard. BSO's point stands, Clayton, and your abnormal reading of people and situations remains laughable and clearly of obfuscatory intent.
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Don't flatter yourself. I'm not talking about heroism. I'm talking about people who have allegedly witnessed atrocities within an organized camp environment. Supposedly while participating in a daily routine.

atrocities
daily routine

atrocities
daily routine

atrocities
daily routine

atrocities
daily routine

days weeks months

Knowing that they could be next would make any person involved in a camp's daily routine a possible time bomb.
A camps daily routine couldn't continue. The guards and staff couldn't trust the inmates. Period.
 
Clayton Moore said:
The Jewish people would have reacted like normal persons in the midst of rampant savagery and terror.
TSR said:
You mean like the Tutsis?

The Armenians?

The Darfur?

The Cambodians?

The Rwandans?

The Bosnians?

The Ukranians?

The Ainu?

The Amerinds?

The Tasmanians?

I could, unfortunately, keep going all night...

Just how many of these were characterized by the kind of insurrection you condemn the Jews for not employing?
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You seem to have missed this one, CM...
 
Clayton Moore said:
Were camp staff personnel armed?
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Were such staff ever not accompanied by armed guards?




Oh, you don't know?





Sorry, that's right -- you don't know because you can't risk actually learning anything about what you are so rabid to deny.
 
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