General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[A'isha]

It really burns Team Holocaust that I am so much more intelligent than they are. All they can respond with is chicken scratch and babble.

And yet, oddly, you are completely unable to respond in a coherent fashion to any of the points raised.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The willingness of workers to fight for reasons that pale in comparison to the savagery Team Holocaust alleges was levied against Jewish people in the camps.

Yeah, so what? "What you need to do is to explain the relevance of workers' organizations . . . to inmates held by the Nazis," which you haven't done by boldfacing the idiocy you posted in the first place.

And, for one thing, Jews fought back against and resisted the Nazis, a fact you keep ignoring.

Also, Jews under Nazi rule, stripped of the most basic rights, subject to violence and compulsion, many of them imprisoned in ghettos and camps, targeted by powerful, armed police and military forces - and with their communal organizations destroyed - faced a situation in no way analogous to that of workers in capitalist countries, where workers maintained economic and political organizations, the rule of law prevailed and individual and group rights were protected, and specific rights of workers to self-organize and engage in activity to promote their interests were protected.

No wonder you won't try to explain your lopsided, silly analogy.

Of your many completely stupid arguments, this one is certainly near the bottom of a very large barrel.

 

[MaGZ]

And why did the other groups in the concentration camps not revolt either, including the aforementioned Soviet POWs? Clay clearly has no problem with that. Why didn't trained (by Soviet standards) soldiers break out? After all, the Jewis civvies could do it, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps#Internees

Obviously the Soviet POWs knew they were better off in the camps than back in the Red Army under the direction of Jewish Soviet political czars.

 

[MaGZ]

Not all Nazi's would harm a baby. But the point is, if they saw another guard do it, they wouldn't intervene. When you see that sort of thing it makes your blood run cold and really emphasizes a sense of hopelessness.

It is sheer idiocy to suggest German guards were harming babies. You read too much Jewish fiction and watch too many Hollywood movies.

 

[MaGZ]

What did Hitler say the count was? It was his plan to kill all Jews and other people. He wanted them all dead, how did he fail badly in the Holocaust denial fantasy world of woo? Holocaust deniers don't seem to be able to do math, as seen in the 911 CT sub-forum where a few Holocaust deniers support lies, do Holocaust deniers need help with math on the Holocaust? Einstein could help Holocaust deniers, he thought he was a German, but Hitler said he could not be a German, he was a Jew. Why did Einstein loose his property if Jews were not be systematically destroyed? Why would a brilliant mind like Einstein leave Germany knowing what was about to happen; persecution and death. Are Holocaust deniers not able to understand things Einstein could, and he was a Jew, and he was smarter than Hitler and most of the world. Why are Holocaust deniers lacking in cognitive things, like knowledge and thinking.

Why did Einstein leave the luxury of dumbed down NAZI Germany? Are Holocaust deniers neoNAZIs, or just antisemitic? Which are you? Help me understand why Holocaust deniers want Hitler to be a bigger failure than he already is? Einstein was also able to read, and in Mein Kampf it is clear the Jews in Germany under Hitler were not going to do well. Did you read Hitler's road-map, his goals? RIF, Einstein knew, why can't Holocaust deniers comprehend the Holocaust?

Hitler, such a nice person...
How can someone be as dumb as Hitler was. A thug, a murderer, an idiot, and he could count better than all the Holocaust deniers - and he came up short; 6 million is not all. Holocaust denial and Hitler, two failures married forever in stupidity and hate. What do you think with your extensive research on the Holocaust - or is all Holocaust deniers work limited to Google U.?

Where did Hitler say he wanted to kill all the Jews or even some of the Jews?

 

[Nick Terry]

Obviously the Soviet POWs knew they were better off in the camps than back in the Red Army under the direction of Jewish Soviet political czars.

So much wrongness in one sentence. How many former Soviet POWs did you ask before pulling this nonsense out of your ass?

 

[Nick Terry]

Where did Hitler say he wanted to kill all the Jews or even some of the Jews?

Read this. All of it.

 

[MaGZ]

Why did Einstein leave the luxury of dumbed down NAZI Germany? Are Holocaust deniers neoNAZIs, or just antisemitic? Which are you? Help me understand why Holocaust deniers want Hitler to be a bigger failure than he already is? Einstein was also able to read, and in Mein Kampf it is clear the Jews in Germany under Hitler were not going to do well. Did you read Hitler's road-map, his goals? RIF, Einstein knew, why can't Holocaust deniers comprehend the Holocaust?

dumbed down NAZI Germany?

Wrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpvBbj6LBlc

 

[MaGZ]

Edited by Tricky: 

Edited for rule 12/civility.

 

[Nick Terry]

No, that's because Holocaust denial requires an insanely stupid and convoluted conspiracy to explain away all the historical evidence, placing it on the same level as Moon Landing Hoax theories and the idea that the world is secretly controlled by shapeshifting alien lizards from the lower fourth dimension.

Correction: Holocaust denial would require an insanely stupid and convoluted conspiracy to explain away all the historical evidence, if the deniers were actually aware of the evidence.

Our resident deniers have demonstrated time and again that they are completely clueless about the evidence. Judging by recent posts, Holocaust denier arguments on JREF are simply insanely stupid. They're too dumb to deserve being called conspiracy theorists.

 

[Nick Terry]

Edited by Tricky: 

Edited for rule response to modded post.

 

[LemmyCaution]

It really burns Team Holocaust that I am so much more intelligent than they are. All they can respond with is chicken scratch and babble.

Back to reality. Let's consider 2 very different comparative cases.

1. The success/failure of Jewish resistance.

Was rebellion a good option? What do actual sources - as opposed to your rampant nonsense about what should have happened - say about the results of resistance and rebellion by Jewish inmates in the camps?

We can look at the case where Jews did resist on arriving at a death camp. We could also look into ghetto uprisings, but let's stick with the camp milieu you're always trying to make something of.

Samuel Willenberg described in his memoir what happened when a transport from Grodno arrived one night at Treblinka and those on it resisted the guards who greeted the train:

. . . In the morning we learned that a transport of Jews from Grodno had arrived during the night. When they were taken out of the boxcars, the people realized what was about to happen to them. The red glow of the flames, the barbed wire fences, the watchtowers—all that could be seen in the darkness which was illuminated by the flame—goaded them into resistance. They were ordered to undress, but they rushed at the SS men with knives, and the battle blazed in all its intensity. The Jews defended themselves with the strength of despair. Since they had no weapons, they attacked the Germans with bottles. The transport comprised about 2,000 people, including many women and children. Not all of them took part in the battle. Some of them just prayed. There was never any doubt that the revolt would end with the defeat of the unfortunates. The machine guns reaped a harvest of blood; [the new arrivals] fell in the roll call square. Of the Germans, three SS men were mortally wounded. They were removed to the nearby hospital. When we came out of our barracks in the morning a terrible sight met our eyes. The roll call square was strewn with blood-soaked Jewish bodies. During the night the soft snow had swaddled them in a coat whiter than white.

Oscar Strawczynski also mentioned the resistance of the Grodno deportees when they arrived at Treblinka, and a Bialystok transport too: "The transports from Bialystok and Grodno were an exception . . ."

To stay with Treblinka, in the planned, general uprising, a small minority - only 60 or so - of the camp's 850 inmates were to break out, hide successfully, and survive the war. And the rising at Treblinka has to be counted among those that had some success.

The odds against successfully resisting were deemed - and shown - to be very long indeed.

What is likely is that most victims, observing for themselves the power of the camp authorities and their own meager resources, and not knowing for sure the Nazis' intent (many believed the rumors spread by the Nazis that they'd be resettled to the Ukraine to farm), decided to go along as the least bad option. Some made other choices and fought back. And that is all there is to your confused speculation about Jewish passivity.

2. POW resistance.

I've already compared the fate of inmates in KZ's to what happened to Soviet soldiers interned in Nazi POW camps. Let's turn to the West for another point of comparison. My father in law was held as a POW at Fallingbostel in Lower Saxony and escaped.

However, for months he didn't escape or even try to. He gave in to superior force when it was warranted. Without the means to resist or escape, he did as he was directed by the Germans and served his time in the Stalag near Fallingbostel.

If the camp's inmates had not in March 1945 been marched to the northeast, away from the advancing Allies, my father in law would not have escaped nor even tried to - and using your special brand of illogic we'd therefore conclude he was dumb and had given up, like the Jews in the ghettos and death camps.

However, the Stalag's inmates were marched out of the camp at Fallingbostel - and the confused conditions of the march gave my father in law and one other inmate an opportunity, which they alone recognized and took advantage of, to flee. So they acted on their desire when conditions gave them some chance of success, whilst other inmates judged the situation still too dangerous and stacked against them. That is why nearly all the inmates of Fallingbostel made the march without escaping.

The same thing happened, by the way, to prisoners in KZ's and death camps. When they were taken on the death marches, many hitherto "docile" inmates were able to use the chaos as cover to flee - some being shot, some succeeding. Before the marches, there was very little chance of successful escape, so very few tried.

What is operative in all these cases? Not the degree of oppression or the nature of the threat to the inmates, nor the desire or lack thereof to flee - but whether there were the opportunity, the recognition of the opportunity, and fortitude to resist or escape.

Because you refuse to look at the history and prefer speculating from ignorance, you miss out on knowing what did and didn't happen and why.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Edited by Tricky: 

Edited for rule response to modded post.

 

[Pacal]

Not even a nice try, since your original point was that the Nazis treated captured Soviet soldiers better than Stalin, which is completely false. I would only be whitewashing Stalin if I was denying the extent of his crimes, whereas you are exaggerating Soviet policy quite drastically.

The Soviets simply didn't kill liberated POWs or even send them all to the GuLag. They were perfectly happy when escaped POWs made it to partisan units or returned to Soviet lines and used those men as any other. Indeed they reconscripted 650,000 liberated/escaped POWs. They put all returning Soviet citizens through filtration camps.

The stats are perfectly clear:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#After_World_War_II

translation: Doggie needs to figure out how to repeat his strawmen and keep the misrepresentation going.

I checked the Wikipedia website. I'm not sure that we can assume Soviet soldiers who were not sent to the Gulag were not punished in some fashion. after all it is easy to document that the Stalinist regime regarded being taken prisoner has a very bad thing and indication of failure by the soldier like "treason". The Soviets also had punishment battalions in the army. The apparent fact that c. 350,000 were put in labour units under the ministry of defence looks to me like punishment at least some of the time. I'm also wondering how many of prisoners put back into the army were put in punishment battalions?

One of the results of the post-Soviet revelations has been the discovery that in some respects the Stalinist regime was less horrible than thought. Still not everyone who fell victim to its manic hysteria was sent to the Gulag, the regular jails and other forms of punishment were also widely used. It appears for example that during the war Soviet style ccourtmartials carried c. 150,000 executions indicating a truly stunning level of brutality and iron discipline.

I note that the figures given for the total numbers of surviving POW's would indicate quite clearly that c. 3 million died. The official post-Soviet figure for the number of Soviet POW's is 4.5 million. The Germans claimed during the war to have captured 5.7 million. My suspecion is that due to the chaos on the Soviet home front and front lines during the first few months of the war the "official" figures are likely serios underestimates and the total number of dead may be well over 3 million.

In comparison it should be noted that previous estimates for the number of German soldiers who died in captivity in the East after being captured by the Soviets seem to be far to high. I remember reading figures of up to over 2 million. One figure often quoted was c. 1.1 million. It appears that the figure is well under that. It appears that the actual percentage of German POW's who died in Soviet captivity is between 10-20%. Rather appalling and quite unacceptable and yes a war crime. But it appears that well over 50% and probably over 60% of Soviet POW's died in German captivity. One could compare this with the fate of millions of Russian prisoners in German hands during the First World War where it appears that well under 5% died. In this area has in others the Nazis managed the diffiicult feat of being signifigantly more bestial than the Russian Stalinists.

 

[Nick Terry]

I checked the Wikipedia website. I'm not sure that we can assume Soviet soldiers who were not sent to the Gulag were not punished in some fashion.

I don't remember claiming that the Stalinist regime didn't punish former POWs. I remember refuting an outright lie from a denier that Stalin treated Soviet POWs worse than the Nazis.

 

[Dogzilla]

There is no evidence that 1.1 million Japanese civilians were vaporized at Hiroshima. The high-end estimate of total deaths for Hiroshima and Nagasaki within the first four months after the bombings is 246,000. About half of these deaths for each city occurred on the first day. I assume any Japanese vaporization would have occurred on the first day.

There is evidence of 1.1 million Jews being gassed at Auschwitz.

Do you know that there aren't any Nazi war criminals who admitted to gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz? No Nazi war criminal was ever charged with gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz. Nobody has ever been convicted in a court of law or punished in any way for gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz.

Am I a holocaust denier for saying this?

On the other hand, there is compelling evidence that 4.5 million Poles, Russians, Czechs, French, Belgians, Dutch, American, and other nationalities (but not Jews) were gassed at Auschwitz. There are people who were arrested and prosecuted for supplying the Zyklon B that was used for committing this crime. None of the defendants charged with this crime denied that it occurred. Two men were convicted and executed specifically for supplying the murder weapon that was used for committing this crime. .

If I said that 4.5 million Poles, Russians, Czechs, French, Belgians, Dutch, American, and other nationalities (but not Jews) were not gassed at Auschwitz, would I be a holocaust denier?

If I said that Nazi Germany intended the physically exterminate all the Jews in Europe but that nobody was killed in a gas chamber, am I denying the holocaust?

If I said that Nazi Germany murdered six million Jews but the five million non-Jews that some people say were murdered in the holocaust is a fantasy, would I be a holocaust denier?

Is the evidence of gas chambers the same evidence that proves the Nazi plan to kill every Jew in Europe?

Are you seeing a trend?

 

[Dogzilla]

Actually, Soviet POWs died in great numbers in Nazi camps - some 3.5 million out of 5.7 million captured, most of the deaths occurring in the first 8 months or so of Operation Barbarossa. These captives were shipped to camps on open rail cars, held under heavy guard, malnourished, denied medical care, keptin open camps, subject to murder actions, made to do forced labor, and mistreated in other ways. Due to their weakened state and the conditions they were held in, Soviet prisoners of war did not resist en masse despite being military.

The conditions may have been a little rugged but if a POW was given the opportunity to get out of the camp by volunteering to help the Germans his situation as POW would not have been so dire that becoming a guard would look much better than remaining a prisoner. And if he decided to become a guard and then found out that he was going to assigned to a camp where other people were doing mean things to the Jews, he could always tell his CO that he changed his mind and would rather go back to the POW camp and hang out for a couple of years as a prisoner. Or he could just walk off the job and find his way back to the front line and rejoin his comrades in the Red Army who would welcome him with open arms, plentiful vodka and the opportunity to gang rape German teenagers. He always had choices and being a Red Army soldier in the custody of Nazi Germany was as good a choice as any.

 

[Dogzilla]

Who's bitter?

I'm merely unsurprised that you (yet again) apparently refuse to read actual scholarly works by actual historians, and instead simply cut-and-paste stuff from denier websites.

I mean, Faurisson? Really?!

EDIT: Even David Irving has better credentials than Faurisson, and he was legally judged to be a lying Nazi hack in his own libel lawsuit!

I don't recall "lying Nazi hack" being used to describe Irving in the judgement. Perhaps you can quote the sentence to me?

 

[000063]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post

If you(German soldiers) were killing Swiss people and Swiss babies in barbaric ways would you(German soldiers) want Swiss people to work near your food or have access to a scalpel 24/7? Or trust them to traverse the camp freely as in an honor system?

Answer in the form of a statement, Clay.

I don't know how old you are but, way back when, good looks were often catered to when a choice of leadership was to be made. Not all the time but if a quick decision had to be made the good looking guy won the day. Ugly/plain/homely people were thought to be stupid and undeserving of opportunity or promotion.

Think of the pecking order of your school buddies K-12.

I'm not sure where you live, but in reality, that tends not to work as a system for creating and locating effective leadership.

I used the Swiss because of their famed neutrality. Have you ever heard of biding your time? Waiting for just the right moment?

What is it with you and the lack of statements?

You don't understand that the German's would be petrified amidst 10s of thousands of Jews if the level of savagery and brutality had been administered by them as Team Holocaust demands.

And what you don't understand is how systems of oppression work. Dozens of smaller events occur every day much like the holocaust which could be stopped if the victims rose up as one. The problem with such uprisings, of course, is that someone has to be on the front line. And it has been noted that you apply no such skepticism to the tales of the Soviet POWs, who were trained soldiers.

You don't understand that people of that time realized they were expendable. Rage and revenge toward day in day out brutality would be more likely than the extra day, week, month of life you seem to think they would cherish so much.

This has been proven false, repeatedly, by history. It is actually very hard to motivate people to such a state.

You need to research the violence, world wide, of the union workers vs company goons and police confrontations. The willingness of workers to fight for reasons that pale in comparison to the savagery Team Holocaust alleges was levied against Jewish people in the camps.

And what about the frequent genocides in Africa? Why aren't the victims rising up there? What about, oh, the Bosnian genocides? Or any other ethnic cleansing program? Union troubles very rarely involve people being killed and oppressed wholesale.

 

[000063]

There you go. The "ape" did the dirty work because the Germans would think he was too stupid to be of any consequence.

Your Quote:

So let me get this straight; you say the Jews would've revolted, but when they actually do revolt, you dismiss it out of hand, and refuse to address what it means for your claim.

Of course, your claim is that they would've all revolted, so anything less than total revolution doesn't count, huh?

Still nothing about the Russian POWs?

It really burns Team Holocaust that I am so much more intelligent than they are. All they can respond with is chicken scratch and babble.

Stealing Ergo's "you don't actually understand the debate!" evasion tactic, are we?

Please, show us all how we don't know what we're talking about.

The willingness of workers to fight for reasons that pale in comparison to the savagery Team Holocaust alleges was levied against Jewish people in the camps.

Yet the Soviet POWs didn't revolt wholesale either. Hmm. Could it be that both they and the Jews were subject to different circumstances than the people in the labor disputes? There's a difference between going up against the Company, and going up against The Country. The armed and militarized Country systematically oppressing you, in a manner which pales in comparison to a labour dispute.

But hey, keep dodging the fundamentally simple request to justify your comparison by declaring it chicken scratchings.

Obviously the Soviet POWs knew they were better off in the camps than back in the Red Army under the direction of Jewish Soviet political czars.

Cannon to the left of them, cannon to the right of 'em, eh?