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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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I don't recall "lying Nazi hack" being used to describe Irving in the judgement. Perhaps you can quote the sentence to me?

It wasn't. But that's not what I said. I said "he was legally judged to be a lying Nazi hack in his own libel lawsuit". And he was.

Here's what Justice Grey said in his judgment:

"Irving has for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence; that for the same reasons he has portrayed Hitler in an unwarrantedly favourable light, principally in relation to his attitude towards and responsibility for the treatment of the Jews; that he is an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist, and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism."

In other words, Irving is a lying Nazi hack.
 
I don't remember claiming that the Stalinist regime didn't punish former POWs. I remember refuting an outright lie from a denier that Stalin treated Soviet POWs worse than the Nazis.

The fact that only a minority of surviving Soviet POW's were sent to the Gulag could lead some people reading it to think that the great majority of surviving POW's were not punished for the "crime" of being captured. Thank you for the clarification. As you can read from the post you were replying to I fully agree that the Nazis treated Soviet POW's much much worst than the Soviets treated either their own surviving POW's or the German Soldiers the Soviets captured.

Just a question; what is the current consensus, assuming there is one, on the total number of Russian soldiers the Germnans captured?
 
Do you know that there aren't any Nazi war criminals who admitted to gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz?

Hilariously wrong. Hoess admitted almost precisely that in his memoirs. His estimates of the major deportation actions to Auschwitz come to almost exactly 1.1 million, and as camp commandant then as staff officer in Amtsgruppe D in charge of the camps, he was in the best position to know.

No Nazi war criminal was ever charged with gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz.

Indeed, plenty of Nazi war criminals were charged with participating in the gassings of smaller numbers, since no one person had total responsibility for the overall death toll. Not even Hoess, since he was't camp commandant from November 1943 to May 1944 and left again in the summer of 1944. So that's a strawman.

Nobody has ever been convicted in a court of law or punished in any way for gassing 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz.

Yet dozens of SS men were convicted of participating in gassings of smaller numbers, the ones for which they actually have criminal responsibility. Kremer was only at Auschwitz for a matter of months, how could he be charged with 1.1 million murders? Liebehenschel was only in charge for six months. Grabner was arrested at the end of 1943. Et cetera.

Am I a holocaust denier for saying this?

No, you're just clueless.

On the other hand, there is compelling evidence that 4.5 million Poles, Russians, Czechs, French, Belgians, Dutch, American, and other nationalities (but not Jews) were gassed at Auschwitz.

Funny, I don't see the words 'compelling evidence' used in the relevant section of the UNWCC Law Reports summary of the Tesch case, which sums up the prosecution argument that an estimated six million were killed using Zyklon B in camps, referring to 4.5 million at Auschwitz. The evidence section then cites Pery Broad, who actually estimated 2.5 million victims at the trial, and contrary to your gloss, emphasised that those victims were Jews (as quoted in your source a few pages later). The indictment evidently did not specify a number, judging by the summary. As the Royal Warrant courts did not issue written judgements, there is no indication that any figure was carved in stone by the court at all. The evidence it heard would have contradicted the prosecution estimate since Broad gave a figure two million lower.

There are people who were arrested and prosecuted for supplying the Zyklon B that was used for committing this crime. None of the defendants charged with this crime denied that it occurred. Two men were convicted and executed specifically for supplying the murder weapon that was used for committing this crime. .

If I said that 4.5 million Poles, Russians, Czechs, French, Belgians, Dutch, American, and other nationalities (but not Jews) were not gassed at Auschwitz, would I be a holocaust denier?

If I said that Stalin didn't kill 100 million people as claimed by Solzhenitsyn on several occasions, am I minimising Stalin's crimes? Inaccurate or exaggerated estimates are hardly unusual for 20th Century megacides, some come from otherwise trustworthy sources. Solzhenitsyn may have been wrong about 100 million dead in the GULag, but that doesn't impeach all the evidence in the Gulag Archipelago. We have better evidence today regarding how many people Stalin ordered killed and caused to die in the GULag, and we have better evidence today regarding the precise extent of Nazi crimes at different sites.

If I said that Nazi Germany intended the physically exterminate all the Jews in Europe but that nobody was killed in a gas chamber, am I denying the holocaust?

But you don't say that, since you have repeatedly denied any such Nazi intention. Name me one person on the planet who denies gas chambers were used by the Nazis who accepts there was a Nazi intention to physically exterminate Jews. (I am ignoring your 'all Jews' strawman until you reply to a previous post.)

If I said that Nazi Germany murdered six million Jews but the five million non-Jews that some people say were murdered in the holocaust is a fantasy, would I be a holocaust denier?

Since many more than 5 million non-Jews were murdered by the Nazis, yes. But if you're correcting a populist meme spread around by Simon Wiesenthal and offering something more sensible then no. Alas, you're not offering anything more sensible, you're just being a contrarian troll.

Is the evidence of gas chambers the same evidence that proves the Nazi plan to kill every Jew in Europe?

Common sense says no. Evidence of planning is not going to be identical to evidence of implementation, especially not when the Nazis used other means (like rifles and machine guns) to exterminate Jews alongside using gas chambers and gas vans.

Are you seeing a trend?

I'm sure everyone long ago spotted the trend for Dogzilla to offer up strawmen and dance around the subject. I'm sure any noobs will spot this quick enough since three posts in a row from you is normally enough to convince anyone reading that you're simply trolling.
 
Just a question; what is the current consensus, assuming there is one, on the total number of Russian soldiers the Germnans captured?

5.7 million was the German figure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_Soviet_POWs

However, this doesn't match the official number of missing recorded by the RKKA, since the Nazis treated everyone in uniform as a POW and also resorted to the mass internment of military-age male civilians, hopelessly inflating the 1941 numbers.

The Krivosheev study of the 1990s is the startiing-point for any serious discussion about Soviet military losses, results summarised here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union
 
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5.7 million was the German figure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_Soviet_POWs

However, this doesn't match the official number of missing recorded by the RKKA, since the Nazis treated everyone in uniform as a POW and also resorted to the mass internment of military-age male civilians, hopelessly inflating the 1941 numbers.

The Krivosheev study of the 1990s is the startiing-point for any serious discussion about Soviet military losses, results summarised here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union

Yeah sure. But who was watching the store? I mean fighting the war?
 
Yeah sure. But who was watching the store? I mean fighting the war?

This is a serious question, Clayton: you were pulling our legs, weren't you? I mean, you are just trolling here, right?

Surely nobody could possibly be so stupid as to wonder how come a country of 200 million people (the Soviet Union) could take losses of more than 20 million and still beat a country of 80 million people (Germany).

Unless....
 
This is a serious question, Clayton: you were pulling our legs, weren't you? I mean, you are just trolling here, right?

Surely nobody could possibly be so stupid as to wonder how come a country of 200 million people (the Soviet Union) could take losses of more than 20 million and still beat a country of 80 million people (Germany).

Unless....
200 - 20 = ??? uh duh . . . ?????
 
Poor man.

But if you put it like that, "Lemmie"

It's only after all a matter of your mislaying a 0, isn't it Clayton?

I mean...um.
 
Nope. Team Holocaust has the German military managing, guarding, feeding 5 to 10 million prisoners while fighting and losing a 3 front, land, sea, and air war.

Nope.

Once again: learn a bit about the history you're condemned by hate to deny.
 
It's amusing that the Holocaustics refuse to admit that Jewish people would have retaliated with measured and unmeasured violence if they were subjected to the horrors of the Holocaust myth. The guards and all camp personal would been under siege 24/7. The Jewish people would have reacted like normal persons in the midst of rampant savagery and terror.

And meaningful labor? Like that would happen in the midst of rampant savagery and terror.

I think the Holocaustics watched too many galley/quarry slave scenes when they were kids.
http://weblogs.nos.nl/binnenlandredactie/2012/05/04/het-onbekende-concentratiekamp-warschau/

After noticing this story among Remembrance Day coverage I just finished reading all related articles I could find online and listened to a few reports like that. Didn't see those specific articles in English yet but they're about groups of KL inmates who were transferred to Warsaw in the aftermath of the Jewish ghetto revolt there. These people were forced to collect any useful material that could be retrieved from the ruins of the ghetto. It was the first time I became aware there had been Dutch people among these forced labor details in Warsaw. Next year a monument will be erected in their memory. Few of them survived.

Turns out there are indications that Esther "Etty" Hillesum's brother Michael "Mischa" Hillesum may not have died in Auschwitz but may have perished in Warsaw as part of these forced labor details. Looks like I'll have to read more than the articles to find out what the grounds are for this revision. The book: Mischa's spel, En de ondergang van de familie Hillesum apparently came out in January of his year. One more life described in more detail. one more Shoah death recorded with more precision. I don't have a large private library but this book will soon be added for that purpose.

When are you going to tell me anything I didn't know before, Clayton Moore? I told Snaketongue he had my attention but can you give me a reason why I should continue reading his messages, or yours? Why do you expect to hold my attention? I could have been using the time it took to read your forum contributions and the time it took to write this comment to look for additional reports about that news from Warsaw. An example like that confirms for me that regular historical research continues and that regular historians will let their research take them where the evidence directs them. What purpose do you serve?

Mischa Hillesum's hand written notations were rediscovered in the archives and this sheet music was used to prepare for recent performances of his music, like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV6dav7DGRE&feature=relmfu

Apparently these are the only two nearly complete compositions Mr. Hillesum left behind. Did he continue composing after 1945? Do you have any indication that he himself performed his ow music in public after 1945? Concerts in Vienna under an assumed name? Recitals on the North-American circuit, perhaps, using a new identity? Did he settle in Israel? Iran? Did Mischa Hillesum give up music all together for fear of discovery of his new identity after the end of the 12 year reich? During the nazi occupation of the netherlands he performed semi-private concerts illegally after Jewish artists were banned from public venues. That is a form of resistance. Just as his sister Etty kept writing in defiance*. Just as David Koker's diary entries were regularly smuggled out of the camps by those who sought additional methods for coping with oppression.

There was a variety of responses to persecution and mass murder. They've been mentioned in replies to your comments and in the referenced materials. You are as incapable of honestly summarizing those sources as you are incapable of honestly summarizing the commentary of other JREF posters. What is the spectrum of individual responses to nazi oppression you can acknowledge? On one end Anna "Ans" van Dijk can be placed -for her betrayal of onderduikers- and on the other end of the spectrum could be the person -not mentioned by name, only as "een jood" [a Jew]- who knocked SDer C.B. Hansen's teeth out while resisting arrest.

Since you apparently object to financial compensation you'll be glad to know that, according to the document, C.B. Hansen was not reimbursed for the dental treatment, dry cleaning bill for his blood stained clothes, nor for the loss of his hat and that he was not allowed to replace his blood stained shirt and raincoat by selecting those items of clothing from the inventory of Jewish property he had helped loot. That's what he proposed in his September 25, 1942 report filed in his capacity as an SD "Hausraterfassung" operative. His public health insurance did cover the doctors bill according to this report.
The last example from a collection of original documents I'm hoping Snaketongue has found by now.

* The writing of Etty Hillesum has been described as an act of resistance by Rachel Brenner. Do you disagree with her? Is violence the only response that qualifies as resistance? You mentioned union workers. LemmyCaution has invited you to explore that a bit. Will you? What do you think that statue on the Jonas Daniel Meijer square in Amsterdam symbolizes? What do you think Mari Andriessen saw as his inspiration? Too many "galley/quarry slave scenes".

In what respects do Jews differ from normal persons, Clayton Moore?
 
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Nope. Team Holocaust has the German military managing, guarding, feeding 5 to 10 million prisoners while fighting and losing a 3 front, land, sea, and air war.
Clayton ignores the matter of deaths in captivity, but maybe that's because he is denying prisoners taken during the war. It is hard to say. But I for one find it refreshing to see "POW Denial" make its first appearance in this forum. I don't know what point it serves, or what it is meant to add up to, but it is unique.
 
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