Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Unabogie]

Wow, if that's true the prosecution's case is even weaker than it appears.

You mean if Zimmerman's story looks like he was lying, that makes the prosecution's case weaker?

 

[Unabogie]

what does that tweet means to you then?

That people posing as someone else used a bunch of racially charged language, and that stupid people bought into it because it confirms their prejudices?

What does it mean on your planet?

 

[RandFan]

I'm fairly certain Martin was legally allowed to carry a screwdriver. The only difference here is that the guy who brings a gun to go to the store must be assumed to have done so for the most possible innocuous reason.

However, the kid who has a screwdriver in his possession must be assumed to have had it for the most nefarious reason possible.

Guns aren't used for nefarious purposes. Screw drivers are... right?

 

[WildCat]

Sanford is known for botching investigations and not making arrests when even video evidence is available.

I wouldn't call covering up for a fellow officer "botching the investigation", as if incompetence was the issue.

 

[johnny karate]

Screwdrivers are the primary break-in tool in my experience (I have repaired literally hundreds of break-ins). The large, heavy ones. Much easier to carry discreetly than a crowbar, and do the job just as well.

My understanding is that screwdrivers also have other purposes.

You don't find it and the jewlery suspicious? Or that he could provide no answer to why he had them? Or why an innocent person who had their jewlery wrongly taken by the police wouldn't try to get it back?

First of all, the jewelry wasn't taken by the police. It was taken by the school. And I'm not aware of evidence that the rightful owner didn't reclaim it or attempt to. What I do know is no evidence has surfaced that it was in fact stolen.

Secondly, I don't deny that it looks suspicious. My whole point is that the standards of evidence being applied to Martin and Zimmerman are completely imbalanced. We are to assume things about Martin, but must say nothing about Zimmerman that cannot be verified with rock-solid, ironclad evidence.

So if you and others want to assume Martin stole that jewelry without any evidence that he actually did, you go right ahead. I'll even agree that you have a fairly solid case.

But I just want you and everyone else to remember where we've collectively set the bar the next time someone makes a similar assumption about Zimmerman.

Why did Cutcher call him a "little boy"? Did he look like a "little boy" in any of his recent photos?

I don't know. But then again, I'm not the one making claims about why she said what she said, so I'm not sure why I would be expected to provide that information. Perhaps either you or curi0us could contact her and find out. I look forward to hearing about the results.

 

[nadsat]

That people posing as someone else used a bunch of racially charged language, and that stupid people bought into it because it confirms their prejudices?

What does it mean on your planet?

So you're saying the twitter handle NO_LIMIT_***** with his face in the profile that was closed shortly after his death is/was not Trayvon Martin? You'll hand wave anything that paints Trayvon as a multifaceted individual. Disgusting.

 

[johnny karate]

So you're saying the twitter handle NO_LIMIT_***** with his face in the profile that was closed shortly after his death is/was not Trayvon Martin? You'll hand wave anything that paints Trayvon as a multifaceted individual. Disgusting.

So a teenage boy brags on the internet to his friends about assaulting a bus driver, and you take that as gospel fact? Yet another amazing criminal endeavor by Trayvon Martin that somehow didn't get reported to the police.

 

[WildCat]

You mean if Zimmerman's story looks like he was lying, that makes the prosecution's case weaker?

If the proof of the lie is Martin's body being a few feet off the sidewalk it sure is.

Do you realize that sometimes people run for blocks after being fatally shot? Unless he was shot in the heart (we know he wasn't shot in the head) he didn't drop dead right away.

 

[Checkmite]

So a teenage boy brags on the internet to his friends about assaulting a bus driver, and you take that as gospel fact? Yet another amazing criminal endeavor by Trayvon Martin that somehow didn't get reported to the police.

Actually it was allegedly Trayvon's brother who asked about a bus driver; IIRC Trayvon did not respond. So there was no bragging.

 

[nadsat]

So a teenage boy brags on the internet to his friends about assaulting a bus driver, and you take that as gospel fact? Yet another amazing criminal endeavor by Trayvon Martin that somehow didn't get reported to the police.

His friend RIP_TRAY9 tweeted to Trayvon NO_LIMIT_***** "yu ain't tell me yu swung on a bus driver". So obviously Trayvon didn't brag about it. His friend presumably found out from some other source(s).

 

[johnny karate]

Actually it was allegedly Trayvon's brother who asked about a bus driver; IIRC Trayvon did not respond. So there was no bragging.

Thanks for the clarification.

But I guess what we've learned here is that if someone says it on the internet, it must be true.

 

[johnny karate]

His friend RIP_TRAY9 tweeted to Trayvon NO_LIMIT_***** "yu ain't tell me yu swung on a bus driver". So obviously Trayvon didn't brag about it. His friend presumably found out from some other source(s).

So it gets downgraded from person admitting wrongdoing to someone else asking them about the wrongdoing without the person in question actually admitting anything.

Yeah, I'm not sure how that helps your case.

 

[WildCat]

My understanding is that screwdrivers also have other purposes.

Why yes, on my job I use those large ones for prying things. I wonder why Martin couldn't explain what his was for? Maybe he forgot?

First of all, the jewelry wasn't taken by the police.

Why yes, yes it was. The school turned it over to the police. They have no legal right to keep it themselves.

And I'm not aware of evidence that the rightful owner didn't reclaim it or attempt to. What I do know is no evidence has surfaced that it was in fact stolen.

You know why they have police auctions? Because they can't find the rightful owners of stolen items. It's very common for people not to report stolen items, for a variety of reasons.

Secondly, I don't deny that it looks suspicious. My whole point is that the standards of evidence being applied to Martin and Zimmerman are completely imbalanced. We are to assume things about Martin, but must say nothing about Zimmerman that cannot be verified with rock-solid, ironclad evidence.

Who's assuming about Martin? He got caught with a large screwdriver he couldn't explain and has jewlery that wasn't his.

So if you and others want to assume Martin stole that jewelry without any evidence that he actually did, you go right ahead. I'll even agree that you have a fairly solid case.

We do know he couldn't explain the screwdriver, and the "friend" he refused to identify never showed up to claim the jewlery.

But I just want you and everyone else to remember where we've collectively set the bar the next time someone makes a similar assumption about Zimmerman.

Exactly, we need evidence instead of speculation.

I don't know.

Can you make an educated guess?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Seriously.... when you are reduced to arguing about twitter feeds, its time to take a break, guys.

 

[Unabogie]

His friend RIP_TRAY9 tweeted to Trayvon NO_LIMIT_***** "yu ain't tell me yu swung on a bus driver". So obviously Trayvon didn't brag about it. His friend presumably found out from some other source(s).

You've done nothing to authenticate it. You just believe it, because you want to. I think I know why.

Zimmerman also had a Twitter feed and told Sanford's white people to "wake up!"

Sounded like a Klansman. So since we just buy anything people post on Twitter, Zimmerman is a Klansman. I don't even have to prove it was really him!

Isn't it fun to believe everything you read on the internet?

 

[Dancing David]

Well, do note that there is not in fact a duty to retreat (which was part of the hypothetical I was discussing). Not that your post indicates you thought otherwise, but just for the sake of clarification for all following along. Nevertheless, I think you may be right. It might be relevant to a lesser included offense, although I'm not sure getting out of the car with the intent to follow without confronting would be considered unreasonably risky. Certainly it was not without risk, and we all know what happened. But the legal analysis does not allow the use of hindsight, and I don't know if it can be said that no reasonable person would have gotten out of the car. (I do not assume Zimmerman intended to follow at a distance without confronting, but the burden would be on the prosecution to convince the jury that Zimmerman intended to confront rather than follow at a distance so the police could locate the "suspicious person.")

Certainly the prosecution benefits by portraying Zimmerman as reckless, as it would help them present a more favorable narrative to their case by making Zimmerman a less sympathetic defendant. But it is completely possible both that Martin reasonably felt threatened (and would have been legally justified in using force) and that Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life when he shot Martin. Legally, Zimmerman's defense only requires the latter, not the negation of the former. That still wouldn't mean it would be useless to the prosecution, but I'm not sure it would be legally significant, at least not with respect to a second degree murder charge.

I would not even pretend to argue that GZ should have retreated as the laws say he does not have to.

I am curious as to the evidence the prosecution has, it could be a case made of moonbeams and good intentions, or it could be they have some evidence that will make the self defense claim a harder sell.

 

[Freddy]

I would not even pretend to argue that GZ should have retreated as the laws say he does not have to.

I am curious as to the evidence the prosecution has, it could be a case made of moonbeams and good intentions, or it could be they have some evidence that will make the self defense claim a harder sell.

I am also curious, though I am even more curious to know why, if they had stronger evidence than they have shown, they would allow Zimmerman to get out on such a low bond (considering the charge) rather than revealing what more they had.

 

[RandFan]

I would not even pretend to argue that GZ should have retreated as the laws say he does not have to.

I am curious as to the evidence the prosecution has, it could be a case made of moonbeams and good intentions, or it could be they have some evidence that will make the self defense claim a harder sell.

I am also curious, though I am even more curious to know why, if they had stronger evidence than they have shown, they would allow Zimmerman to get out on such a low bond (considering the charge) rather than revealing what more they had.

I've said this before so forgive me for repeating it. During the Duke Lacross fiasco many reporters kept saying things like, "the prosecution must have evidence we don't know about.". No, the prosecution didn't. That kind of of inductive reasoning is just inviting madness.

My prediction: Other than the voice analysis, which is looking shaky, we know most if not all of the significant evidence about this case. Everything here after is going to be anti-climatic to say the least. If what we got isn't enough then I'm sorry, the case isn't there, my 2 cents.

 

[johnny karate]

Why yes, on my job I use those large ones for prying things. I wonder why Martin couldn't explain what his was for? Maybe he forgot?

Guns are used to kill people. I wonder why Zimmerman can't explain why he decided to bring a gun with him to go to the store?

Why yes, yes it was. The school turned it over to the police. They have no legal right to keep it themselves.

Do you have another source other than this one?

School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.

You know why they have police auctions? Because they can't find the rightful owners of stolen items. It's very common for people not to report stolen items, for a variety of reasons.

Awesome. Also from the above article:

No evidence ever surfaced that the jewelry was stolen.

Who's assuming about Martin? He got caught with a large screwdriver he couldn't explain and has jewlery that wasn't his.

And you assume the screwdriver was a burglary tool and the jewelry was stolen, without evidence of either.

Just like I assume Zimmerman armed himself, and chased down and confronted Martin with the same amount of evidence you used for your assumption.

We do know he couldn't explain the screwdriver, and the "friend" he refused to identify never showed up to claim the jewlery.

And you know that how?

Exactly, we need evidence instead of speculation.

When did that start? Last time I checked we were assuming Martin's screwdriver was a burglary tool and he had stolen jewelry in his possession. Has new evidence surfaced proving either of those allegations?

Can you make an educated guess?

Why would I bother?

 

[nadsat]

You've done nothing to authenticate it. You just believe it, because you want to. I think I know why.
Zimmerman also had a Twitter feed and told Sanford's white people to "wake up!"

Sounded like a Klansman. So since we just buy anything people post on Twitter, Zimmerman is a Klansman. I don't even have to prove it was really him!

Isn't it fun to believe everything you read on the internet?

Why?

Zim's twitter handle was created after the incident reached national attention. Trayvon's handle had his face in the profile picture and was in use for months prior to the incident. Thedailycaller compiled a bunch of his tweets:

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/the-daily-caller-obtains-trayvon-martins-tweets/

So what's the explanation? Someone hijacked his identity? I think johnny karate believes it is Trayvon (correct me if I'm wrong) but hand waves the bus driver comment. You just don't believe it, because you don't want to. I think I know why: conflicts with your preconceived notions.