Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[triforcharity]

It sounds like the loser just has to die then.

If I start a fight with someone over something stupid...let's say a parking space...

I'm angry about the space being taken and the other guy is taunting me, so I punch him. I started the fight. Prior, it was just an argument.

I'm armed, but my gun remains in it's holster. This is a fist fight to settle our differences over a parking space. There's no intent to kill anyone. When one person can't go anymore, the fight will normally end. Or, if one person gets knocked out, the other will normally stop, having won.

The other guy gets a good shot in and I go down. He then starts kicking me in the head and stomping me in the chest.

How long do I wait before I shoot him?

22 minutes.....

No, since you were the aggressor, you would have to make every attempt to disengage the fight and escape. If you had exhausted all efforts to do so, you would be justified in using deadly force.

 

[KatieG]

I wouldn't call 5'3'' short, even in the US. And, if we consider the world as a whole, you're probably even taller than average.

Just stay away from Lithuania or the Czech Republic

Not that I care, but clothing designers in the US consider 5'3" petite. Was always a stocky body type so I was considered fat, even when I wasn't.

At 5'8" and 200 lbs., GZ was definitely overweight. I shouldn't have said fat cuz that ain't nice to say about other folks.

 

[triforcharity]

I don't know. Nor do I understand the point you're trying too make.

I don't find your scenario to be reasonable. It would require massive incompetence, in my opinion.

Massive = all parties involved.

Sanford is known for botching investigations and not making arrests when even video evidence is available.

 

[triforcharity]

Wait, how is that at odds? On the night of the incident, GZ was 5'8" and about 200 pounds. Sounds like a short, fat guy to me.

I'm about the same weight and height, but not fat. (5'9"-194lbs)

 

[Freddy]

And the establishment of some chain of reason and logic/evidence showing that either a reasonable person would not have followed Trayvon or that a reasonable person would have felt threatened by being followed will likely be part of the prosecutors case.

DISCLAIMER TO PREVENT FLAMING BY CRIMRESEACRH
In no way should the above opinion be taken as a statement of legal fact or in contradiction of legal fact. All readers should assume I am 'just some guy on the internet' who is expressing an opinion.

Well, do note that there is not in fact a duty to retreat (which was part of the hypothetical I was discussing). Not that your post indicates you thought otherwise, but just for the sake of clarification for all following along. Nevertheless, I think you may be right. It might be relevant to a lesser included offense, although I'm not sure getting out of the car with the intent to follow without confronting would be considered unreasonably risky. Certainly it was not without risk, and we all know what happened. But the legal analysis does not allow the use of hindsight, and I don't know if it can be said that no reasonable person would have gotten out of the car. (I do not assume Zimmerman intended to follow at a distance without confronting, but the burden would be on the prosecution to convince the jury that Zimmerman intended to confront rather than follow at a distance so the police could locate the "suspicious person.")

Certainly the prosecution benefits by portraying Zimmerman as reckless, as it would help them present a more favorable narrative to their case by making Zimmerman a less sympathetic defendant. But it is completely possible both that Martin reasonably felt threatened (and would have been legally justified in using force) and that Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life when he shot Martin. Legally, Zimmerman's defense only requires the latter, not the negation of the former. That still wouldn't mean it would be useless to the prosecution, but I'm not sure it would be legally significant, at least not with respect to a second degree murder charge.

 

[eeyore1954]

I'm 5'3" and weigh 140 so I'm a short, fat woman. Medically speaking. I didn't mean to insult anyone.

I was only kidding I know I am both height and weight challenged. Or as my friend Winnie the Pooh says when he exercises.

I am short, fat, and proud of that and so with all my might
I up, down, up-down to my appetite's delight
While I up, down, touch the ground I think of things to chew
Mmm, like honey, milk, and chocolate
With a hefty-happy appetite I'm a hefty-happy Pooh.

On a more serious note Zimmerman does not look fat in recent pictures.

 

[crimresearch]

I doubt that, but please continue, I stated what I felt. I am sure you will have an exact place where I stated my opinion was legal fact as well.

You have sprayed enough piss in this thread, I am sure a few more gallons won't matter.

Post # 7642: Just as much of GZ's history is not going to be relevant to the particulars of the case.
Prior history is often excluded in the discovery

Nonsense in the context of this case. The test is between prejudicial and probative values, as already clearly explained, and there is no logical basis to support your wild guesses to the contrary.

Post # 7643 It is really hard to say, some of it will depend on the conversation with the girlfriend , and then the actual case precedent that the prosecutor will be looking at.
There is going to be some fine balancing of prior cases to establish how to interpret the events of that night.

That is simply bull, there is no new question of law here, and even if it were, the appelate level is where that would take place.

You've once again tossed random buzz words around without having any clue as to what they mean, just as you did in the past with 'psychopathy' and 'psychosis', and now you are simply trying to derail the thread with your usual outbursts of personal attacks.

I've backed up my legal commentary with links to facts, you've provided nothing that is either correct or useful...

 

[triforcharity]

I'm 5'3" and weigh 140 so I'm a short, fat woman. Medically speaking. I didn't mean to insult anyone.

I wasn't insulted, and I bet you're beautiful.....

 

[KatieG]

I was only kidding I know I am both height and weight challenged. Or as my friend Winnie the Pooh says when he exercises.




On a more serious note Zimmerman does not look fat in recent pictures.

It has been reported that he's lost weight since the incident. The booking report had him at 5'8" and 185. I was giving him a 15 lb. weight loss since Feb. 26th. And now I'll just toddle along away from the weight subject. Been an issue with me all my life.

Shall we talk about the weather that night?

 

[triforcharity]

I was only kidding I know I am both height and weight challenged. Or as my friend Winnie the Pooh says when he exercises.

So, the city built the curb too close to your rear? Mine did the same thing. City guys.....always mucking things up!

 

[crimresearch]

Not that I care, but clothing designers in the US consider 5'3" petite. Was always a stocky body type so I was considered fat, even when I wasn't.

At 5'8" and 200 lbs., GZ was definitely overweight. I shouldn't have said fat cuz that ain't nice to say about other folks.

Again, what in those pictures is fat or noticeably overweight about Zimmerman? And where did you get 200 pounds from?

 

[KatieG]

Again, what in those pictures is fat or noticeably overweight about Zimmerman? And where did you get 200 pounds from?

It has been reported that he's lost weight since the incident. The booking report had him at 5'8" and 185. I was giving him a 15 lb. weight loss since Feb 26.

 

[crimresearch]

It has been reported that he's lost weight since the incident. The booking report had him at 5'8" and 185. I was giving him a 15 lb. weight loss since Feb 26.

He was booked the night of the shooting. The first picture is from that night.

His height and weight fall well within the charts for Hispanic men of his age.

That is relatively significant in assessing the credibility of his (and at least one witness') story when it gets to court.

 

[KatieG]

He was booked the night of the shooting. The first picture is from that night.

His height and weight fall well within the charts for Hispanic men of his age.

That is relatively significant in assessing the credibility of his (and at least one witness') story when it gets to court.

He apparently weighed more than 185 lbs. on Feb 26th. I don't know that for a fact and I don't have a clue why this is such an issue. The incident I'm referring to is the shooting, not the night he was booked.

 

[WildCat]

I don't know how factual any of it was, but the so-called "burglary tool" was actually a screwdriver. Which leads me to hope my home is never raided by the police because of all the burglary tools they would find.

But I do enjoy how a screwdriver and jewelry in a locker = Trayvon Martin is a burglar. I guess Zimmerman just caught him on his night off.

Screwdrivers are the primary break-in tool in my experience (I have repaired literally hundreds of break-ins). The large, heavy ones. Much easier to carry discreetly than a crowbar, and do the job just as well.

You don't find it and the jewlery suspicious? Or that he could provide no answer to why he had them? Or why an innocent person who had their jewlery wrongly taken by the police wouldn't try to get it back?

 

[WildCat]

I never understood the impulse on this thread to elevate GZ's injuries past fistfight-level damage. That's all they ever were. No medical reports will change that.

Relevance?

The posts suggesting GZ's injuries are irrelevant were all correct IMO. His only chance at showing that his life was in danger is in showing that TM wanted to get his gun and shoot him.

The injuries are evidence of a fist-fight, and a one-sided one at that. If Martin came back around to confront Zimmerman, as the timeline supports, and then assaulted Zimmerman self-defense is a legitimate issue.

Needless to say, there's always the possibility that TM wanted to get the gun in order to prevent himself from being shot. This is the real issue, I think.

Do you attack people with guns just in case they might decide to shoot you?

 

[nadsat]

TM isn't a professional fighter though, let alone a champion. In fact, if anything, what is known about TM is that he's a nice kid who doesn't get into fights and GZ is short and out of shape.

I think a better question is what would I expect to see if a lanky teenager fought a little fat guy? A sloppy punch and two guys rolling around on the ground.

he did "swung on a bus driver" though. Maybe the bus driver asked him what was he doing on the bus.

 

[WildCat]

Wildcat didn't even know that there was a difference between the old school techniques of voice identification and the new techniques being employed by EVB. You seem to be accepting his ignorance as gospel.

Can you link to the published works of these astonishing new techniques in peer-reviewed science journals?

 

[WildCat]

He walked out of the station because he claimed SYG.

Just where in this story does SYG come into play, and why isn't it just a classic self-defense case?

 

[KatieG]

Just where in this story does SYG come into play, and why isn't it just a classic self-defense case?

That's what the chief of police said. Take it up with him.