Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[KatieG]

I think we can safely assume that this point that his lawyer wasn't bluffing and he had a broken nose. And I think we can somewhat safely assume that the picture ABC released showed a bleeding head. But if you want to say we don't know those things with certainty, sure, we don't know them with certainty.

I get a little frustrated with you repeatedly misrepresenting what just about every person on my "side" says, which is merely that it is possible GZ is telling the truth. That is NOT the same in any way shape or form as "believing everything GZ says as gospel" no matter how many times you try to paint it that way.

And now I'm angry because you deliberately misrepresented what I said. I said some folks. Did I specifically name names? No, no I did not.

Um again, virtually every claim of certainty of the screams that I've seen came from your side, all of which came from a willingness to embrace junk science voice analysts in a newspaper article.

I don't claim we have proof, but as I've stated at this point my personal belief based on the evidence I've seen is that those are more likely than not GZ's screams. NOT just because he says so, but for reasons already stated and not worth restating again.

I don't have a "side" per say. What I do know is a 17 yo young man is dead. How and what happened that night are unknown to me.

I arrived at some premature conclusions I reached by reading the MSM. As things went along, they were proven wrong. I accept that, I have no choice but to accept it.

I have made no claims about any voice junk science nor made any posts condoning its use. Please don't lump me in with those who have made any claims.

Based on my personal life experiences and interactions with people all over the world (military brat, traveled for business), and listening to GZ's call to LE, and seeing the final outcome, I think GZ got himself into trouble and TM died. I believe he followed him and a couple of guys bumped chests. Wow, never seen that happen before! Too bad one of them had a gun.

I don't blame GZ because I think SYG is terrible law. GZ wasn't responsible for it's passing. I just don't think someone should be able to confront another person, then shoot their way out of it.

If GZ gets immunity at the SYG hearing, so be it. I won't be happy but I won't head out my door with a pitchfork and torch in hand.

If it goes to trial and he's found Not Guilty, the above applies. That would mean 12 people saw all the evidence and made that conclusion.

If GZ is found Guilty, then so be it. I wasn't there, I didn't see what those 12 people saw with the evidence presented.

Regardless of the outcome, some people will be unhappy. They can just get glad in the same shoes they got mad in. GZ's life is ruined, no matter what. I can't imagine the personal hell he is going through and I hope I never do. I can't be happy with his misfortune. I'm sure he'd take it all back if he could. But, and oh yeah, there's always a but, as an adult, I think GZ should have exhibited better judgement. The police were on their way.

I know it's frustrating for folks out here who are doing the point/counter point thing, and that's great! Keeps all of us on our toes. But I don't recall ever attacking your posts and was a little surprised by the vehemence with which you came after mine.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

But I don't recall ever attacking your posts and was a little surprised by the vehemence with which you came after mine.

Katie, my apologies for reacting so strongly. Your points I did not quote are fair.

 

[KatieG]

Katie, my apologies for reacting so strongly. Your points I did not quote are fair.

You are one of many out here whose POV I appreciate because you make me think. Which is, I think (see what I did there), the reason we're here.

Because I have no life, well disabled actually, I've read every page of this thread. I got here on page 2. Some of the posts out here make me scream because the facts are wrong. Even mine on a couple occasions!!

This is really about more than the death of TM. The underlying issues are very deep. I know what I want to believe but I'm old enough to know that doesn't mean it's true.

 

[RandFan]

Generally that's because someone gets hit, goes down, hits their head on something significantly harder than a human fist.

Fists tend to break* when you hit a normal skull with them with the amount of force needed to do kill an otherwise healthy person.

Don't mind me, just chiming in on punchy-kicky things. Back to lurking.

*Edit: I've broken both of mine, and that's with gloves on.

It's all good.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That's fair. I honestly thought the toxicology results had been released. Mea culpa.

No worries.

That's a little less than fair. Martin has no criminal record and there is absolutely no evidence he was a drug dealer. I daresay the tweets of a teenage boy wouldn't so much be reflective of reality as they would the boasts and fantasies of a teenage boy.

I have a teenage tweeter, so in my experience, the truth is somewhere in the middle. You are correct, there is no evidence. If you read through his tweets, there are definitely implication which look like more than teenage boasts. At least a few of his 'friends' tweeted some pics of blunts they were going to smoke in his honor, too.

And if the empty baggie is indicative of anything more sinister, one has to wonder why the police weren't called in.

I think it's indicative of pot, nothing more sinister.

Martin was suspended multiple times for smoking weed? You'll have to provide a cite.

I must not have been clear. I was mocking the whole 'trayvon is an average teenager' meme. He has been suspended 3 times this school year, has at least 2 tattoos, and may smoke pot. IDK, it's nothing like how my teens behave. Maybe that is average behavior. if so, that's a shame.

Trayvons character is going to come up in trial, i think. I do think it's a valid possibility that he was actually on drugs, especially when challenging whether there was a legit reason to be suspicious. FWIW, I believe GZ father said george said (yes, hearsay) TM was not walking on the sidewalk, but in the yards. I don't know if it's true, or if it matters.

Short of that, I don't deny the possibility of Martin looking like he was on drugs, only dispute the idea that we accept it as fact because Zimmerman says so. It could be that Zimmerman has no idea what he's talking about.

I agree. But like suspicious, it's relative, and very difficult to prove anything one way or the other.

Maybe. But we seem to be walking a very fine line between which rules Zimmerman was aware of and which rules he wasn't necessarily responsible for knowing. And for whatever reason, that division seems to be determined by how much it benefits his version of events.

GZ knew all the rules and chose to ignore them.

Since I just read that sign, am I now a "neighborhood watch captain" too?

:salute: <-- not a real smilie

 

[curi0us]

No, you just made a bunch of goofy allegations.

Like this one:

I have already supported that allegation with a multiple cite reply that was a direct response to you that you never challenged:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8193892&postcount=6151

Your prior failure to reply when combined with your recent attempts at ridicule show your tactics to be that of a dishonest troll.

It was hard for me to read through tears of laughter. And even harder for me to take even remotely seriously at this point.

I'm telling you it's the Celox. Follow the Celox.

If you want to argue more about head scalp lacerations with me my last post on that matter is also now sitting unanswered:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8222579&postcount=7415

Your doing a kind of gish gallup common to CTers and creationists where when you are cornered on an issue you to divert to another one hoping to distract people from how obviously wrong you are.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

 

[Dan O.]

It would help if you would quote what TheL8Elvis quoted so we can see what you are responding to.

You see that little red arrow after the user name in a quote? That's a link back to the post being quoted so if you need more context you need only follow the chain back.

Here is the original post for the sub-thread:

Until someone demonstrates they can use voice recognition techniques under similar circumstances as the Martin tapes I'm calling woo.

Or, as Det. Gilbreath put it,

GILBREATH: The "Orlando Sentinel" had someone do it and the FBI has had someone do it [a voice analysis].

O'MARA: Is that part of your investigation?

GILBREATH: Yes.

O'MARA: Has that given any insight as to the voice?

GILBREATH: No.

However taking a guess from the context, I think the answer is obvious. The FBI had as much as the voice quacks, yet unlike the voice quacks, could not say who was or was not screaming. Therefore your question of whether they had obtained those exemplars is insincere and does not negatively impact Elvis point that the FBI could not say.

So where's is your evidence that the FBI has voice analysis software equivalent to EVB? The old school form of this analysis required that the comparison be made between identical words spoken the same way. To do such a comparison will require an exemplar from George and that will be granted durring discovery.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

He claims those injuries but until medical reports are released, we don't know that for a fact. I just get a little frustrated that some folks think everything GZ says is gospel and what is reported about TM should be discounted.

To be fair, when you make broad, sweeping statements like :

There is no known evidence that the shooting agrees with GZ's story.

It's also frustrating. GZ walked out of the police station precisely because all the evidence agreed with his story.

We don't know whose voice that is screaming on the 911 call. If it can't be proven, we can't say it's GZ or TM. Fair?

Define proven ? By direct proof ? By inference ? By science ? By preponderance of evidence ?

 

[Dan O.]

Wildcat said it was woo without exemplars. That still seems to be the case.
IOW, tom owen easyvoice is still woo.

Wildcat didn't even know that there was a difference between the old school techniques of voice identification and the new techniques being employed by EVB. You seem to be accepting his ignorance as gospel.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So where's is your evidence that the FBI has voice analysis software equivalent to EVB?

Just a thought, but they could buy it and have exactly the same capability?

But here you go. I am going to make an argument from incredulity. Based on other highly technical tools the FBI has been demonstrated to have, I don't for one minute believe that the FBI is behind commercial software in voice analysis.
That's all I got. I can't prove it, nor do I want to try.

The old school form of this analysis required that the comparison be made between identical words spoken the same way. To do such a comparison will require an exemplar from George and that will be granted durring discovery.

I'm not in a position to say what will or will not be granted during discovery.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Wildcat didn't even know that there was a difference between the old school techniques of voice identification and the new techniques being employed by EVB. You seem to be accepting his ignorance as gospel.

I think I am here . and you are -------------------------------------> here.

I am going to have to bow out of this part of the debate.

 

[KatieG]

To be fair, when you make broad, sweeping statements like :



It's also frustrating. GZ walked out of the police station precisely because all the evidence agreed with his story.



Define proven ? By direct proof ? By inference ? By science ? By preponderance of evidence ?

He walked out of the station because he claimed SYG. At that time, the SPD didn't have any info that contradicted his story. They did such a thorough investigation that night. I do find it a bit unsettling that they failed to do a tox screen on GZ. SYG or not, I think it would have been in the best interest of all to have done that one simple thing.

I have stated clearly that I have no opinion on the voice junk science so I will pass on that.

 

[curi0us]

So where's is your evidence that the FBI has voice analysis software equivalent to EVB?

The FBI (and CIA/NSA) probably already have better stuff. The technology is real it's just Owen massively exaggerated how effective it is. I found the company that seems to be really behind EVB. It's the Speech Technology Center, like TracerTek they have had people work with Owen in the past. It looks like STC designed their voice biometrics for business use or governments (Mexico!) and EvB is the same software with a different front end for civilian forensic IDing. Here is a white paper from STC on their voice biomtrics software, parts are identical to what is at EVB but STC provides more detail:
http://speechpro-usa.com/files/filefield_stats/639/565/0/05f15ec0b2fb45ccc6cc1195e34941d0

^Take a look at page five and the chart on "Speech length vs Identification Accuracy". With a short sample it won't be accurate and that's not even taking into account how poorly recorded screams will tweak the softwares matching ability.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

He walked out of the station because he claimed SYG. At that time, the SPD didn't have any info that contradicted his story.

6 weeks later, how much do they have ? Anything we are aware of ?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

6 weeks later, how much do they have ? Anything we are aware of ?

We can only guess at that, but from the display they put on at the bond hearing I would give a weak guess of no. I think it's more likely they just have a prosecutor who made a different decision with the same evidence. Of course now when the evidence comes out, we'll get to see which prosecutor made the right decision.

 

[triforcharity]

I'm not sure, but I think GZ's relentless bad judgment should make him guilty of manslaughter. If that charge fails, I see him losing a civil suit for wrongful death.

Actually, if the judge rules that Zimmerman acted in legitimate self defense under Florida Law, Zimmerman would be immune to any wrongful death lawsuits.

Now, if the judge rules there isn't sufficient evidence, and releases him, he could be sued.

 

[KatieG]

6 weeks later, how much do they have ? Anything we are aware of ?

I have no idea since none of them have bothered to consult with me! How about you?

 

[triforcharity]

There does seem to be clear evidence that the shooter had a chip on his shoulder toward the boy that was killed before any physical altercation between them had even begun. And he seems the sort to provoke and escalate confrontation and violence.

But that doesn't mean it's impossible that the shooter's self-defense claim is false. Does the boy that was shot have any prior record of acting out violently? If so, the shooter's claim becomes somewhat more plausible, imo.

Not that I am aware of. But, I could have missed it.

p.s. Just wonderin': now that the shooter has been released from custody, is he entitled to resume riding shotgun? Or has he been disarmed?

The judge ruled that he is not to own or possess any firearm of any kind.

 

[Dan O.]

The FBI (and CIA/NSA) probably already have better stuff. The technology is real it's just Owen massively exaggerated how effective it is. I found the company that seems to be really behind EVB. It's the Speech Technology Center, like TracerTek they have had people work with Owen in the past. It looks like STC designed their voice biometrics for business use or governments (Mexico!) and EvB is the same software with a different front end for civilian forensic IDing. Here is a white paper from STC on their voice biomtrics software, parts are identical to what is at EVB but STC provides more detail:
http://speechpro-usa.com/files/filefield_stats/639/565/0/05f15ec0b2fb45ccc6cc1195e34941d0.

Did you find a direct linkage between Owens and STC or are you just going by the similarity of the software? As I reported earlier, there appears to be an open source repository of the core functions and it wouldn't be surprising to see multiple commercial spinoffs once the technology matured.

 

[Cylinder]

Cite, please.

I am very reticent about arguing Martin's character, so I won't.

I was interested in this claim because I haven't seen it before, so here it is:

In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f---.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family’s lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana, which he called “irrelevant” and an attempt to demonize a victim.

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds. Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend. “Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

Trayvon was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to the report. School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.