Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

How many times must one's head strike concrete before thinking the next time may result in loss of conciousness? Is there a guidebook? Me, personally? One time.

Exactly. And the fact that Zimmerman's lawyer and father might have offered exaggerated reports to the media about his injuries should be completely ignored.

I mean, did you see those photos of Trayvon Martin his family released to the press? Appalling. And apparently, at one point in time Martin had a screwdriver in his possession. Why is the media ignoring this story?

 

[eerok]

I believe there has been hardly any attempt to elevate them past "fist fight level damage", to the contrary, it's mainly been others that have continually tried to suggest they were either non-existent, or needed to be much worse, which you now seem to be doing, and is a fallacy.

No fallacy on my part—I think GZ's injuries are irrelevant.

This assumes that a person being beaten can't be in fear for their life unless they've been beaten past some "magical" threshold. His nose was broken, his head was lacerated, he could have feared losing consciousness, feared his gun was then going to be taken and used against him etc.

Please don't try to invent my position. Nothing you've said has anything to do with what I said. Excuse me if I delete another bunch of stuff you posted that's completely irrelevant to what I said.

[...]

Please note, I am not saying that anyone that gets beat up should be able to shoot their attacker, not that GZ being beaten up in and of itself gives him a right to shoot his attacker, so let's not go with that strawman please .

I dunno, you're kinda the strawmeister here. I said that the trivial degree of GZ's injuries means not much of anything. You seem to agree. Why the drama?

At risk of being misunderstood again, let me repeat that while GZ thought that TM wanted to get the gun to kill him, TM may well have wanted to get the gun to protect himself from being killed.

Get it?

We only have GZ's take on this, and my entire position is based on the idea that one perspective is not enough.

 

[Noztradamus]

We don't know that. Who knows how Mr. neighborhood watch perceived TM.

WAG as a "*********** punk" and one of "these ********"

 

[KatieG]

I believe there has been hardly any attempt to elevate them past "fist fight level damage", to the contrary, it's mainly been others that have continually tried to suggest they were either non-existent, or needed to be much worse, which you now seem to be doing, and is a fallacy.

This assumes that a person being beaten can't be in fear for their life unless they've been beaten past some "magical" threshold. His nose was broken, his head was lacerated, he could have feared losing consciousness, feared his gun was then going to be taken and used against him etc.

It's also likely employing 20/20 hindsight. If GZ was being beaten as he claimed he had no idea at that moment who was beating him or why and could have believed they intended to kill him. He was not obligated to allow them to beat him within an inch of his life in order to prove self-defense.

So you are quite right that there is no need to elevate his injuries past "fist fight level damage", but quite wrong in assuming they can't give him a legitimate self-defense claim.

Please note, I am not saying that anyone that gets beat up should be able to shoot their attacker, nor that GZ being beaten up in and of itself gives him a right to shoot his attacker, so let's not go with that strawman please .

He claims those injuries but until medical reports are released, we don't know that for a fact. I just get a little frustrated that some folks think everything GZ says is gospel and what is reported about TM should be discounted.

We don't know whose voice that is screaming on the 911 call. If it can't be proven, we can't say it's GZ or TM. Fair?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

We only have GZ's take on this, and my entire position is based on the idea that one perspective is not enough.

Well maybe you can do a seance and contact TM. Otherwise I have a feeling we won't be hearing his perspective on this any time soon.

 

[RandFan]

How many times must one's head strike concrete before thinking the next time may result in loss of conciousness? Is there a guidebook? Me, personally? One time.

One punch to the head is enough to kill someone. Is there a guidebook? I'm sure for many even one punch is too much. Guy's got his fists up... Hey, better safe than dead.

 

[johnny karate]

Well maybe you can do a seance and contact TM. Otherwise I have a feeling we won't be hearing his perspective on this any time soon....wow, hold on, I just did one and he answered. TM says GZ is lying and attacked him. He says he had no reason at all to attack GZ.

Case closed.

Ha ha ha... it's funny because Trayvon Martin is dead.

 

[Giz]

And apparently, at one point in time Martin had a screwdriver in his possession. Why is the media ignoring this story?

Oh come now: stolen jewelery.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

He claims those injuries but until medical reports are released, we don't know that for a fact.

I think we can safely assume that this point that his lawyer wasn't bluffing and he had a broken nose. And I think we can somewhat safely assume that the picture ABC released showed a bleeding head. But if you want to say we don't know those things with certainty, sure, we don't know them with certainty.

I just get a little frustrated that some folks think everything GZ is gospel and what is reported about TM should be discounted.

I get a little frustrated with you repeatedly misrepresenting what just about every person on my "side" says, which is merely that it is possible GZ is telling the truth. That is NOT the same in any way shape or form as "believing everything GZ says as gospel" no matter how many times you try to paint it that way.

We don't know whose voice that is screaming on the 911 call. If it can't be proven, we can't say it's GZ or TM. Fair?

Um again, virtually every claim of certainty of the screams that I've seen came from your side, all of which came from a willingness to embrace junk science voice analysts in a newspaper article.

I don't claim we have proof, but as I've stated at this point my personal belief based on the evidence I've seen is that those are more likely than not GZ's screams. NOT just because he says so, but for reasons already stated and not worth restating again.

 

[eerok]

Well maybe you can do a seance and contact TM. Otherwise I have a feeling we won't be hearing his perspective on this any time soon....wow, hold on, I just did one and he answered. TM says GZ is lying and attacked him. He says he had no reason at all to attack GZ.

Case closed.

I'll take these bizarre comments as an admission of logical capitulation rather than construing them to be something clearly far more pathetic.

I'm doing you a favor here, so you're welcome.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I'll take these bizarre comments as an admission of logical capitulation...

You needn't take it that way at all, just take it as sarcasm that you're one of two people in this thread now added to ignore that is incapable of making a rational argument and not worthy of serious exchange.

 

[johnny karate]

Oh come now: stolen jewelery.

Cite, please.

 

[Dan O.]

In case you missed it:

I doubt that you missed the earlier part of this thread where it was argued that to make a proper identification they would need an exemplar from Zimmerman and possibly also one for Martin. Do you have information that the FBI had obtained those exemplars? Do you have some reason to expect the FBI will be unable to obtain better voice samples in the future as this case gets underway?

 

[LTC8K6]

What about if/when John testifies that GZ was on the bottom, and GZ was the one screaming, screaming at John to help him?

It seems likely that will be John's testimony, given John's statements and his 911 call and the fact that the fight was right near his patio.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I doubt that you missed the earlier part of this thread where it was argued that to make a proper identification they would need an exemplar from Zimmerman and possibly also one for Martin. Do you have information that the FBI had obtained those exemplars? Do you have some reason to expect the FBI will be unable to obtain better voice samples in the future as this case gets underway?

It would help if you would quote what TheL8Elvis quoted so we can see what you are responding to.

However taking a guess from the context, I think the answer is obvious. The FBI had as much as the voice quacks, yet unlike the voice quacks, could not say who was or was not screaming. Therefore your question of whether they had obtained those exemplars is insincere and does not negatively impact Elvis point that the FBI could not say.

 

[Dan O.]

When his neighborhood was contemplating starting an official neighborhood watch program, but never followed through.

Maybe he just saw the sign right outside the gate ?
http://ideas.time.com/2012/04/17/real-neighborhoods-should-do-more-than-watch/?xid=gonewsedit

If you keep rolling those eyes you'll miss important information such as the fact that George had already attended at least one neighborhood watch meeting.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I doubt that you missed the earlier part of this thread where it was argued that to make a proper identification they would need an exemplar from Zimmerman and possibly also one for Martin. Do you have information that the FBI had obtained those exemplars? Do you have some reason to expect the FBI will be unable to obtain better voice samples in the future as this case gets underway?

Wildcat said it was woo without exemplars. That still seems to be the case.
IOW, tom owen easyvoice is still woo.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

If you keep rolling those eyes you'll miss important information such as the fact that George had already attended at least one neighborhood watch meeting.

Yes, did you read the sentence below the eye roll, which was for a different part of the post ... it was about the failed neighborhood watch. I understand he attended meetings.

 

[Dan O.]

How many times must one's head strike concrete before thinking the next time may result in loss of conciousness? Is there a guidebook? Me, personally? One time.

Why don't you just move so your head is no longer over the concrete!

Wait, that's what George said he did that caused his gun to be exposed.

 

[Phrost]

One punch to the head is enough to kill someone. Is there a guidebook? I'm sure for many even one punch is too much. Guy's got his fists up... Hey, better safe than dead.

Generally that's because someone gets hit, goes down, hits their head on something significantly harder than a human fist.

Fists tend to break* when you hit a normal skull with them with the amount of force needed to kill an otherwise healthy person.

Don't mind me, just chiming in on punchy-kicky things. Back to lurking.

*Edit: I've broken both of mine, and that's with gloves on.