Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[RandFan]

We don't know that. Who knows how Mr. neighborhood watch perceived TM.

Actually, we have a very good idea of how Zimmerman perceived Martin. It's on the 911 tape.

"This guy looks like he's up to no good."

"... he's on drugs or something."

"These ******** always get away."

I know we all have to steer as far way as possible from the idea that Zimmerman might have "profiled" Martin, but to pretend that Zimmerman did not adopt a negative or hostile attitude towards Martin is a position flatly contradicted by Zimmerman's own words.

Yes, I think that is fair.

 

[johnny karate]

Was it reasonable? A recent spate of burglaries, then a stranger strolling through the neighborhood, "looking like he's on drugs"/on a headset... those are the kind of things that police tell neighborhood watches to keep an eye out for and call in about.

First of all, your original claim I was disputing was "Who knows how Mr. neighborhood watch perceived TM". We do know. And Zimmerman didn't seem to hold Martin in very high regard, to say the least.

Secondly, you seem to be assuming it as fact that Martin actually looked like he was on drugs, as opposed to Zimmerman simply having an erroneous impression of what someone on drugs look like. And since it turns out Martin wasn't on drugs, I'd say that's a pretty strong case for the latter.

And lastly, I thought Zimmerman wasn't part of any official neighborhood watch program. When would he have received training from the police?

 

[eerok]

That's great. Call the cops. Report the suspicious character. Job done.

Oh, wait. GZ is frustrated because those beepbeeps always get away. Gun is loaded. Let's go.

Big mistake. Dead kid.

I agree. Does that make what he did illegal ?

I'm not sure, but I think GZ's relentless bad judgment should make him guilty of manslaughter. If that charge fails, I see him losing a civil suit for wrongful death.

Do you have an argument to make, or just appeals to emotion ?

I consider that a fair question. I'm interested in the facts of what happened, and I'm stymied by the fact that TM can't bear witness here. But we have to consider things from his point of view, even if hypothetically, do we not?

How can we jump from the fact that TM went to the store for Skittles, was talking on his cell—and then decided to turn rabid killer? Does that make any sense to you?

Do you think that since TM has been shot and killed, that the reality he was dealing with at the time of his death should be ignored? Do you care at all what motivated his actions, whatever they were?

You tell me.

The opinion I see so far is that we don't know what was going on with TM so we must ignore it as "nonfactual." Sorry, but I don't buy that.

I see TM as the victim here, and GZ screwed up.

I really want to see a reason why TM would want to do any harm to GZ that didn't stem directly from a threat from GZ. Anyone got one?

So I have a logical appeal, not just an emotional one. Why, except to defend himself, would TM engage violently with GZ? Don't be shy. If you know the answer, please offer it.

 

[johnny karate]

So you're claiming that Martin was both non-violent and violent at the same time?

That's almost as crazy as Zimmerman's father telling us his son is "non-violent" despite the fact that he shot and killed someone.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

First of all, your original claim I was disputing was "Who knows how Mr. neighborhood watch perceived TM". We do know. And Zimmerman didn't seem to hold Martin in very high regard, to say the least.

Secondly, you seem to be assuming it as fact that Martin looked like he was on drugs, as opposed to Zimmerman simply having an erroneous impression of what someone on drugs look like.

And since it turns out Martin wasn't on drugs, I'd say that's a pretty strong case for the latter.

Have we gotten autopsy and toxicology results ? He was suspended for allegedly having an empty bag of weed, and his tweets certainly imply using if not selling weed.

I think at this point it's quite possible he looked like and may have been on drugs. He's a typical 17 yr old and they all get suspended multiple times a year from school and smoke weed, right ?

And lastly, I thought Zimmerman wasn't part of any official neighborhood watch program. When would he have received training from the police?

When his neighborhood was contemplating starting an official neighborhood watch program, but never followed through.

Maybe he just saw the sign right outside the gate ?
http://ideas.time.com/2012/04/17/real-neighborhoods-should-do-more-than-watch/?xid=gonewsedit

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I'm not sure, but I think GZ's relentless bad judgment should make him guilty of manslaughter.

The problem is that many people keep assuming he made relentless bad judgment without knowing all of the facts. IF his story is true and he was heading back to his vehicle and was attacked by TM, whatever bad judgment he made up to that point is likely entirely irrelevant, and also likely not as reckless as some think.

If that charge fails, I see him losing a civil suit for wrongful death.

I believe one of the unique things about the FL law is that the stand your ground law stops you from being pursued civilly. However I don't know how that works if he's charged and found not guilty. That clause may not apply then.

 

[crimresearch]

Yeah, ya caught me. We all know that Skittles taste like crap unless they're dipped in the blood of the Neighborhood Watch. Obviously TM was out for murder when he went to the store. Nothing else makes sense.

Seriously, though, you're trying to tell me that TM had a good reason to kill GZ? Talk about no evidence, this isn't even rational as a hypothetical.

Seriously, I'm trying to tell you that ridiculous nonsense like that meets every definition of trolling, and I'm not going to waste my time on it.

 

[WildCat]

That's almost as crazy as Zimmerman's father telling us his son is "non-violent" despite the fact that he shot and killed someone.

Or Zimmerman's father saying he recognized the screams as his son's.

How about you johnny, are you also going with the "Martin was an innocent little kid who couldn't or wouldn't hurt a fly but if he did attack Zimmerman it was because he was provoked by Zimmerman's looking at him funny" angle?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm not sure, but I think GZ's relentless bad judgment should make him guilty of manslaughter. If that charge fails, I see him losing a civil suit for wrongful death.

He may. As I understand it, that's a whole different legal issue than the murder charge, though.

I consider that a fair question. I'm interested in the facts of what happened, and I'm stymied by the fact that TM can't bear witness here. But we have to consider things from his point of view, even if hypothetically, do we not?

How can we jump from the fact that TM went to the store for Skittles, was talking on his cell—and then decided to turn rabid killer? Does that make any sense to you?

If you take away the loaded phrase 'rabid killer' ... sure. I am pretty sure I have already posted this exact same thing ... ah yes:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8149425&highlight=teenager#post8149425
The first point was that TM is a teenager. They often have poor judgment and self control. I would not find it in any way remarkable if TM decided to turn around and have a fight with GZ for following him. Or as I said, kick his ass. Perhaps I should have been more accurate and said 'Try to kick his ass'.

Do you think that since TM has been shot and killed, that the reality he was dealing with at the time of his death should be ignored? Do you care at all what motivated his actions, whatever they were?

Sure, see above. TM could have continued to home. He was 300 feet away. There was ample opportunity to make it there. He chose not to.
Why? You tell me.

So I have a logical appeal, not just an emotional one. Why, except to defend himself, would TM engage violently with GZ? Don't be shy. If you know the answer, please offer it.

See above. Impulsive 17 year old tired of being followed by a short white guy.

Makes as much sense as anything else. Why, except to defend himself, would GZ shoot TM after having just called the police about him ?

 

[nadsat]

resignation rejected

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/...ief-bill-lee-s-resignation-rejected-1.3677308

SANFORD, Fla. - The Sanford city commission rejected the resignation of the police chief harshly criticized for his handling of the Trayvon Martin case.
The commissioners voted 3-2 Monday to reject the resignation of Bill Lee. The majority blamed the uproar surrounding Martin's death on outsiders.

-snip-

 

[Giz]

That's almost as crazy as Zimmerman's father telling us his son is "non-violent" despite the fact that he shot and killed someone.

Perhaps he is just trying to say that his son wasn't the type to launch an unprovoked attack on someone and try to smash their head open on some concrete?

 

[eerok]

The problem is that many people keep assuming he made relentless bad judgment without knowing all of the facts. IF his story is true and he was heading back to his vehicle and was attacked by TM, whatever bad judgment he made up to that point is likely entirely irrelevant, and also likely not as reckless as some think.

Well, yeah, that's to the point. Can anyone offer a theory as to why TM would attack GZ? Is this even plausible, considering that we now know that TM was just some kid passing by?

It makes no sense to me—though I admit that this doesn't mean it didn't happen. But TM's alleged sudden desire to harm GZ does need to be addressed, does it not?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I'm not sure, but I think GZ's relentless bad judgment should make him guilty of manslaughter. If that charge fails, I see him losing a civil suit for wrongful death.

I consider that a fair question. I'm interested in the facts of what happened, and I'm stymied by the fact that TM can't bear witness here. But we have to consider things from his point of view, even if hypothetically, do we not?

How can we jump from the fact that TM went to the store for Skittles, was talking on his cell—and then decided to turn rabid killer? Does that make any sense to you?

Do you think that since TM has been shot and killed, that the reality he was dealing with at the time of his death should be ignored? Do you care at all what motivated his actions, whatever they were?

You tell me.

The opinion I see so far is that we don't know what was going on with TM so we must ignore it as "nonfactual." Sorry, but I don't buy that.

I see TM as the victim here, and GZ screwed up.

I really want to see a reason why TM would want to do any harm to GZ that didn't stem directly from a threat from GZ. Anyone got one?

So I have a logical appeal, not just an emotional one. Why, except to defend himself, would TM engage violently with GZ? Don't be shy. If you know the answer, please offer it.

Those are all good questions that many of us have grappled with, I think. I think where you are erring is you seem to only be willing to entertain one side of the equation, and it's not to hard to imagine scenarios where your questions are answered. I know someone who was recently arrested at about 55 years of age for beating someone else up. To my knowledge they had never been arrested prior to that their entire life and are otherwise non-violent. But in the right situation with the right set of triggers they lost it and acted extremely irrationally and beat the crap out of someone.

It's just not that inconceivable that TM decided to attack GZ. Likewise, I find it entirely conceivable that GZ somehow provoked things to the point of violence.

 

[johnny karate]

Have we gotten autopsy and toxicology results ?

That's fair. I honestly thought the toxicology results had been released. Mea culpa.

He was suspended for allegedly having an empty bag of weed, and his tweets certainly imply using if not selling weed.

That's a little less than fair. Martin has no criminal record and there is absolutely no evidence he was a drug dealer. I daresay the tweets of a teenage boy wouldn't so much be reflective of reality as they would the boasts and fantasies of a teenage boy. And if the empty baggie is indicative of anything more sinister, one has to wonder why the police weren't called in.

I think at this point it's quite possible he looked like and may have been on drugs. He's a typical 17 yr old and they all get suspended multiple times a year from school and smoke weed, right ?

Martin was suspended multiple times for smoking weed? You'll have to provide a cite.

Short of that, I don't deny the possibility of Martin looking like he was on drugs, only dispute the idea that we accept it as fact because Zimmerman says so. It could be that Zimmerman has no idea what he's talking about.

When his neighborhood was contemplating starting an official neighborhood watch program, but never followed through.

Maybe. But we seem to be walking a very fine line between which rules Zimmerman was aware of and which rules he wasn't necessarily responsible for knowing. And for whatever reason, that division seems to be determined by how much it benefits his version of events.

Maybe he just saw the sign right outside the gate ?
http://ideas.time.com/2012/04/17/real-neighborhoods-should-do-more-than-watch/?xid=gonewsedit

Since I just read that sign, am I now a "neighborhood watch captain" too?

 

[johnny karate]

How about you johnny, are you also going with the "Martin was an innocent little kid who couldn't or wouldn't hurt a fly but if he did attack Zimmerman it was because he was provoked by Zimmerman's looking at him funny" angle?

This feels like a trick...

 

[Giz]

Have we gotten autopsy and toxicology results ? He was suspended for allegedly having an empty bag of weed, and his tweets certainly imply using if not selling weed.

For some reason I thought that he had been suspended for having a burglary tool and some jewelery of "unexplained provenance" on his person?

Not that this implies he was casing houses on any particular night...

 

[eerok]

The first point was that TM is a teenager. They often have poor judgment and self control. I would not find it in any way remarkable if TM decided to turn around and have a fight with GZ for following him. Or as I said, kick his ass. Perhaps I should have been more accurate and said 'Try to kick his ass'.

Hey, an answer on point—thanks for that.

You're right that TM was not necessarily smart in his judgment, just as GZ certainly was not. I don't doubt that both were blundering to some degree, but only one got killed. For the record, I'd be just as upset if GZ got shot and killed. It was such a stupid situation.

But you have to admit that GZ was the author of the scenario. I just can't hold him blameless. It's a tragedy of errors, but the guy who pushed it has to be held accountable to some degree.

If TM indeed circled back to attack... well, dumb move on his part. If that can be objectively established, then I'd have to shift in favor of GZ wrt self-defence.

Which might mitigate his liability, but wouldn't excuse GZ for being an idiot from the get go. He still made a bad assessment that started the ball rolling.

 

[johnny karate]

Perhaps he is just trying to say that his son wasn't the type to launch an unprovoked attack on someone and try to smash their head open on some concrete?

You're right. He just shoots people. Not violent at all.

But before we get derailed into a tedious semantic debate, I was simply making a point that perhaps human beings are a little more complex than being either totally non-violent or a "nefarious killer". That maybe a generally non-violent person can be provoked into violence without necessarily becoming a murderer.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Since I just read that sign, am I now a "neighborhood watch captain" too?

Yes, Captain J.K.

 

[WildCat]

This feels like a trick...