TAM X - Singles n' Singles

[Horatius]

Ah, my mistake.

 

[crazylegsmurphy]

Well, as much I would love to stick around and listen to all your amazing arguments...

I realize I'm not going to convince any of you of anything here because the last thing it appears anyone is interested in doing is looking at this with a critical eye. I am however going to attempt to summarize my interpretation of this post and skeptics in general.


This entire situation is the result of two threads.

In the first thread I attempted to start a new event at TAM for people who were in a similar situation as me. Because my experience at a previous TAM was not all that glorious, I decided perhaps I would approach it slightly different this time.

For those who aren't aware, I put out a general invitation to anyone who was attending TAM for the first time, single (romantically), or alone. The point was to see if there was any level of interest in this.

Turns out, there was! Within a day or so I had 4 people confirmed on the Facebook page. Others were being invited, and it seemed to have a good chance of becoming a successful event.

The thread itself started to gain a bit of traction as well, and some members, while hesitant, seemed interested.

It's a good idea - pick a time and place, and tell people about it. Go bowling and reserve a big table for dinner, or anything, really.

Make a FB event, add it to the list here, etc...

I am single, attending alone, and this is my second TAM.

I am travelling to TAM alone, but when I arrive I certainly don't feel alone. But, I suppose a singles event might be something I might attend.

However this is when the fun started. A few members of this forum seemed like they were more interested in questioning the idea, than supporting it. Sure, it started will small things.

Yeah, what she said. It's really hard to run out of people to meet and mingle with at TAM.

While this seems like an innocent little observation, what it's actually saying, however subtle, is that this person finds that the reasons for wanting to create this event, isn't legitimate in their mind.

This is when I started having to explain a bit.

Depends who you are. It's difficult for some to just walk up to people and say, "hey." There may be a lot of people there, but when people are there in groups, everything becomes just a little bit harder when you're alone (or new).

Now, here is where it started to wonky in my opinion. Here is what I said in my original post.

A few years ago I attended TAM 8 with a friend, and being that it was our first time at TAM, and new to the skeptic movement, we found it was fairly hard to meet people.

As you can see, in MY personal experience, it wasn't all that easy to meet people at TAM as some might claim. However, this was AdMan's response.

I've said this before and likely will say it again, but in my experience TAM is one event where it is very acceptable to walk up to what looks like a "group" you may not know (you'll know they're TAM attendees because of the badges and assorted skeptical tees), just say, "hi, mind if I join you?" and (assuming they don't mind, which they probably won't) join in. I know it may not be easy at first if you're alone and/or it's your first TAM, but, really, it's OK. Just try it once at the Del Mar and you'll see it's fine. TAM attendees are generally very friendly and open to meeting new people.

This seems like nice advice right? Sure, this person is letting me know that despite my experience, TAM attendees are generally friendly and all you have to do is simply follow these steps...easy cheesy!

What this person did in my opinion was discount my experience, assume I didn't try any of these things, and if I had it would have been smooth sailing. Knowing that this person may genuinely believe they're helping, I responded with a bit more clarification.

While I don't doubt your experience, mine was much different.
Please understand this idea isn't due to a lack of friendliness from the people at TAM. I'm sure it's quite easy for some to just walk up to groups of people and strike up a conversation, but there are many of us who, for various reasons, aren't comfortable doing that.

Now, at this point I feel any reasonable person would put two and two together. I think I made myself quite clear that while I understood that there were already avenues in place to meet people, myself, and possibly others might not be comfortable with those options. This again was the primary reason to start this event.

In my opinion, this should have been enough for people to say, "Ok, this person, for whatever reason didn't have any luck with the established events at TAM, and is wanting to start their own, I will support them if I can, or...I have nothing more to add."

However, this isn't what happened.

But... but...

Isn't that going to be a problem meeting people at any large event? If meeting new people is a goal, you have to be willing to talk to strangers even if you aren't comfortable with it. Otherwise, what are the options?

TAM does more than I've ever seen from a conference to be welcoming to new people and to give them opportunities to meet (apart from a certain ill-conceived opening reception a couple years ago). But no one is going to force anyone to interact.

If you walk into the bar, you have to assume the people in the bar want to talk to other people. There's very little reason to sit in a space that crowded otherwise.

Now, how is this constructive? I didn't remember asking anyone for advice on becoming more confident, nor do I remember asking for a mental evaluation. Let me put this another way. This post was not constructive, what it did was start to call into question the reason for the event, and the abilities / personalities of the people interested.

Then we started losing the point. The conversation started to shift from support, to "defend TAM" , "Shoot down the idea", and "questioning the abilities of the people interested"

Here are some examples.

Exactly. Even if someone successfully organized a "singles meetup" at TAM, those "singles" are going to form into groups.

Who cares? Is this productive? Does this help in any way at all to point out potential negative outcomes?

I don't think I completely understand. Are you saying that you tried to talk to someone and they were mean or rude, or that you felt intimidated to speak to anyone to begin with?

What does this have to do with the event? My reasons and the reasons of others are really irrelevant. The only thing that really matters is that myself and others didn't feel comfortable, and were looking for an alternative.

The post above started to put me on the defensive. Instead of focusing on creating a good event, I was now being asked to explain my situation and my feelings.

I went on to explain a few things hoping that the clarification would be enough to allow people to say, "Ok, this person truly doesn't feel comfortable, I should either support this or leave."

But no....it continued.

More people started commenting on how "flabbergasted" they were that this was difficult for some, all the while missing the point. I wasn't asking for advice, I was asking for people to support the idea.

I'm not sure why this is difficult to understand. I was not interested in hearing all the reasons why this was confusing to people, I was interested in hearing from those who would be interested in the idea. Simple as that.

Here is the idea...are you interested? Yes, great...no, fine, go somewhere else.

But, I was still trying to be civil at this point, but growing increasingly frustrated that I was being required to defend myself and the idea to those who felt obligated to offer advice.

My point in my earlier post, however, was that I think that at TAM these are a small minority. Virtually everyone I've met at TAM has been open, friendly, and willing to chat and get to know new people. But of course you need to talk to them first to find this out. And you can't just sit in a corner and hope they come up and talk to you. If they turn out not to be nice and friendly when you say hi, just move on.

With regards to your point about finding yourself in a conversation where you have nothing of value to add, you said, "Meeting people can be intimidating at the best of times, let alone standing around awkwardly as others discuss something you know nothing about." I prefer to think of listening to a conversation like that as a learning opportunity. If I don't understand something, I see if there is an opportunity to ask a question.

Again, I don't want to suggest I think a singles' meet-up at TAM is a bad idea (and I hope I am not sounding preachy--that is not the intent), but just to say that there are many other, maybe better, ways to meet people there.

Personally, I think this post sums up much of what I'm trying to get across here. What you have in my opinion is what appears to be helpful advice, but what is really an insult. It creates this exaggerated situation of people just cowering in corners too afraid to approach anyone.

There is an undertone of judgement here that I took personally. It was again offering personal advice where none was asked for. I wasn't interested in hearing this persons advice on meeting people, that's not what I asked for.

In his last paragraph you can see one of the reasons why I started becoming upset. Again, I was asking if anyone was interested in the idea being presented...simple, are you interested yes or no?

Many of you may be looking at this wondering what I am on about, but I'll put it this way. This "friendly advice" was actually quite irritating. It was requiring me to defend myself personally (even if at this point it was subtle), and defend the idea. At no time were people saying, "This is cool, what can I do to help?" it was, "You can't be a stick in the mud, you should get out there and mingle, and here is how we all do it."

This continued for some time.

Well, I will check out and may decide to attend your event, but "trial and error" is really the way all of us meet people and make meaningful connections. Thinking that is too time consuming and frustrating and deciding that leaving to go shopping is more appealing may not be the best approach if you're honestly trying to meet people. Just saying.

Sign up for what? How will you differentiate who is standing around in the bar as part of your group, and who is standing around in the bar who isn't?

9am, I'll be sound asleep.

In any New Friends situation, someone has to make the first move or the whole thing would be a middle school dance. One choice is to just go up to someone and ask to join them. Another is to have some sort of signal to others that you are open to conversation. I can't think of a third option.

These posts are all basically not needed. They weren't adding anything to the conversation, but I felt I needed to explain myself because I didn't want anyone reading this who might be interested to be confused as to what the intention was or anything.

To me, these weren't very constructive. Did I ask for advice on meeting people? Did I appreciate being compared to an awkward middle school student? Where in any of these posts were positive suggestions offered?

I believe while the tone was civil, these posts were largely negative. They weren't offering anything constructive relating to the event. You have little sarcastic jabs, little "jokes", and generally nonsense.

However....then along came a new member.

I understand your frustrations as I was in a similar situation. I attended TAM 6 entirely by myself. I did know a couple of people from back home a little and I chatted with and met a few lovely skeptics. But for the most part I flew well under the radar and kept my mouth shut.

It's easy for people with oodles of confidence to say "just talk to people" but for those of us hugely lacking in self confidence, it's not that simple. Most people at TAM are certainly friendly and welcoming but when enthralled in conversation with their friends the thought of "I should go talk to that strange, shy girl cowering in the corner" is not really a thought that comes to mind.

What I found helped was to go to an extracurricular planned event (I went on the roller coaster excursion) and it was easier to interact with a smaller group of people. So I agree that your event is a great idea.

It wasn't until TAM 7 when I attended with my sister that I was able to suck it up and meet and interact with more people. I now consider many of them to be dear friends although I only see them once a year. But I know that even this year I will scan the tables at the Del Mar for people I know to sit with as the prospect of interjecting myself at a table full of strangers is still much too daunting.

I will sign up for your event and look forward to it.

100% exactly the reason why this idea was hatched in the first place. While it's a shame this person felt they needed to defend and explain themselves, it offered a suggestion, and it showed interest. Amazing!

Now imagine for a moment if you cut out all the previous posts above. Would this thread now feel welcoming and cool? I believe so wholeheartedly. This person sympathized with the idea, and was positive and encouraging.

The thread continued and kinda turned into this strange mixture of advice and suggestion. Because some were starting to focus on the event itself, I started to address those posts.

Earlier, I was quoted in a way that it made it seem like I was just shooting down ideas left, right, and centre. However, here is my full quote.

I completely agree with everything you've said. In fact, this is the reason why I don't really enjoy my local Skeptics in the Pub events. I would be all for a neutral event that everyone would be comfortable doing.

This is also my hesitation with Del Mar even though it seems to be the popular choice. As someone who doesn't drink, it's already a strange situation for me. At TAM 8 my friend and I came a bit late to a Del Mar meet up, and we ended up sitting in the most awkward place at the end of the table.

I would rather pick an activity where everyone can participate, and where they're free to move about and mingle.

Personally, I'm all about the extracurricular events. I have been trying to get events organized outside of the pub in my local city because I am not a fan of bars/pubs. I find the atmosphere is not conducive to meeting new people because you have to talk loudly, people are getting "tipsy", and the seating arrangement is usually annoying as Andriiya mentioned above.

I met a few people the first time I was there because I was promoting my skeptic based comic, and had a few fans there, but I still found that it didn't lead to much hanging out or anything because people were there with friends and such.

All good ideas though. I think that if we can get a nice little group of people together, it will give everyone the confidence to partake in some of the activities because they can worry about having fun, instead of finding someone to talk to.

It seems I was pretty keen on finding an activity that everyone could do, and wasn't opposed to anything really. Sure I had my own personal reasons for not liking some of the suggestions, but I wasn't opposed to anything. All I was trying to do was make sure that the event /activity met EVERYONES needs.

Then....we had some awesomeness!

I think your singles event is a good idea, crazylegsmurphy. Maybe you could go with a theme to give people something to focus on besides being single and meeting other singles. In the past, for instance, people have organized get-togethers around game night, pajama parties, and scotch and cigars.

Simple, to the point with some good ideas. No "well we do this" or "I don't understand why this is so hard for you." Just simple, "great idea, here are some suggestions." a breath of fresh air.

Ohhhh....but then we had Captain Negative step in.

But I don't know if I'm keen on the overall idea of something activity based, as the the participants are somewhat stuck in one location, can't easily say hi to people outside the little group, move somewhere quieter, or join a different group if the people near them smell funny.

Unless you're a total moron, this person basically insulted everyone. Seriously, look at what they wrote. This person didn't add any positive suggestions, and they seemed to be suggesting that they weren't interested because they were already looking for a reason to get out of the situation if it didn't suit him.

This post added nothing of value in the least. It was negative and insulting and if this person didn't have anything to offer, and didn't like the idea, why were they even posting?

Don't think I read that right? Well they continued.

Say the activity was bowling. You're pretty much forced to stick with the same three or four people, and the people in the lanes next to you, to a lesser extent, for the duration of the event. Wandering around is discouraged, as it could negatively affect the experience of the people you're playing with. A movie is even worse for meeting people, as it's just sitting still and being quiet.

Compared to parties in someone's room, where you mingle, make snarky comments about the cheap bottle someone brought, watch guys deep throat chocolate phalluses, take a quick shower with someone new, hang with the smokers, snuggle with the Marquis, listen to Hitchens tell jokes that go nowhere... all of which have happened at previous TAMs.

I just think there's more opportunity for interpersonal interaction when there's less structure to an event.

This person was already looking for reasons to piss off and find something else to do. Then they went on to suggest a bunch of "ideas". Honestly though...Never having met anyone of these people before, what makes this person think I am interested in some frat party shenanigans? What makes this person think these are in anyway appropriate suggestions for the most part?

However, I replied...

Personally, other than Hitchens, everything you described sounds very unappealing to me. No offence, but that's the kind of stuff I used to do back when I played Rugby. And while I wouldn't fault anyone for finding that enjoyable, I'm not sure a bunch of people who have never met would be interested in "taking a quick shower" with each other.

Perhaps I'm just and old Fuddy Duddy, but I don't really view TAM as some big skeptic version of the movie "The Hangover." I just want to meet cool people, have good conversations, and perhaps do some cool and meaningful stuff.

I do however agree with you in some respects about the event. Some events are better than others. A group movie would make no sense, and you're probably right about bowling as well.

That said, it's not like TAM is being held in rural Baltimore or something. This is Las Vegas...if there is any place in the world where there is a lot of possibilities it's there.

I mean, you (and everyone else) is free to do whatever you like so feel free to bring up your idea on the Facebook page and see if people are into it. I would personally like to find something a little more comfortable. I tend to believe that those who are into random showers, and deep-throating stuff will probably have little problem meeting and finding people at TAM.

Now, you see that last paragraph? Even though I explained why I thought these ideas were totally stupid for anyone over the age of 15, I said, "sure, go ahead suggest it...if people are into it, great!"


Then we had come cool advice...but oh, here comes AdMan again to the rescue. What do you think happened? Do you think he offered up some cool ideas? Perhaps he posted a link to a website with some suggestions? MAybe he said, "This sounds awesome, I'll do what I can to help!"

Ready?

Joining one or several of the many "extracurricular" activities around TAM is usually a great opportunity to meet people.

And congratulations captain obvious! Thanks for showing up to the conversation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we establish this already? Did we not already talk about Del Mar, bowling, sushi, and whatever? Geez man!

But hold on....I mean seriously. This gets better. We have already seen that for the most part there were a few people who seemed more interested in playing "head shrink" and explaining all the reasons why they weren't really interested...but then we have Suzie Saywhatever.

I will not be attending this function. I do not want to be trapped and not be able to leave.

So after posting random pointless peanut gallery drivel in the thread for almost two pages, this person finally decided to show up and not only point out she wasn't going, but insult us, me, and the idea by saying she didn't want to be "trapped".

Eat my money sack man! As I responded, why would anyone want someone like this at the event? This little social butterfly didn't want to have to commit to some new people because this would stifle her ability to run around TAM spouting off her joyful drivel.

In what world is this a positive comment at all? How is this not rude?

This pissed me off. I hate people like this. They show up and think they're just the belle of the ball, when really it's just a lot of feathers and not much chicken. I'm old enough now that her "pretty face" doesn't impress me, so all I was witnessing was a rude little girl with nothing of value to add to the conversation but what she perceived to be "clever" little inside jokes and sarcasm.

Then after a few posts we came so your good friend and mine Horatius.

I think your essential problem is you haven't adequately defined who this event is intended to appeal to, and how you'll let those people know that it even exists.

You've talked about people who are uncomfortable meeting people in the bar, but why then would they be more comfortable meeting people at this event? Why would they be more comfortable at this event, as opposed to any of the other events that have run in the past? Events like: The Dinner and Fremont Street Excursion, the Poker Tournament, the Bowling Night, the Sushi Lunch, the Opening Reception, the Drinking Skeptically. What distinguishes your event from those, which have historically been quite open to new people? Anyone who posts on the forum and is interested in meeting people can sign up for these events, and quote a few have in previous years.

And even if you can identify a group that isn't interested in any of the above, what other event would interest them? I can't really imagine one myself.

Wow, look at that! All those questions for me to answer. See how this person has basically labeled this whole idea a failure and presented it as such? This person entered into this conversation assuming that it was a bad idea. They didn't seem to care that seven people were signed up and that some others were taking interest.

They just assumed that I wasn't doing anything other than sitting on here rubbing peanut butter on myself with no idea or clue how to organize an event.

Lets face it, this post attempts to come off as helpful, but really all it's doing is bashing the idea with little actual helpful advice. This person chose to jump to conclusions instead of finding out the facts.

At this point I was becoming increasingly frustrated. Dealing with all these side topics was making my patience run thin.

I have seen this before, and I was foolish to engage in these conversations. These people show up and have no care at all what the actual point of the topic is about. They simply want to throw out advice and personal observation that sucks someone into a debate.

You see this a lot on fan forums. For example someone will say, "I'm wondering if anyone is interested in having a meet up for My Little Pony fans?"

Someone will inevitably come along (we like to call them trolls in the industry), and they will start to argue a topic that seems like it's part of the original question, but is actually designed to just get people going.

For example, "You know that it's weird for a guy to like My Little Pony right? I mean it's cool if you want to have a meet up, but there are a lot of better cartoons out there. Is Transformers fans always meet at the burger place on 4th, and really, I can't understand why you wouldn't wanna come out for that."

Instead of...."Sounds awesome, I like that show. We should meet at the taco place on 12th because it's yummy. I'll be there!"


Think this is stupid? Well here is a little something for ya. A few weeks ago I started a MLP meet up on Facebook. I asked if anyone was interested in coming out and we would figure out the details and time later. Guess what?

That's right, 33+ people attending! Not once have I had to deal with any crap. I have had a bunch of really awesome advice given for what to do and where to meet. People have been accommodating, helpful, supportive, and fun.

The idea has been positive and has attracted more and more people. People have been expressing how excited they are and have started getting to know each other through the event page. I am excited to go!

This was also happening on the Facebook page for the TAM event. This forum was full of negativity, and excuses to put the idea down, but over on the FB page people were friendly, excited, and being helpful.

Do you guys see the difference here? Does this make any sense to any of you at all?

Do you not understand how by offering up all your "advice" and questioning the idea you basically ruined it for everyone? Do you not see that you surrounded this thread with negativity and naysaying until it wasn't fun or exciting for anyone?

In the end, because of this thread and the other one, I would rather spend my time at another event. I'm not interested in attending something where so many people seem to feel it's appropriate to "nicely" shoot down others ideas and then claim, "Oh, I was being polite!"

Ya, you can still make someone feel like crap and still be polite. You can still make your posts appear to be helpful, but in reality are much more underhanded and destructive.

Anyway, what is done is done. I'm no longer interested in attending this, or any other TAM because based on my experience, there are other events out there where people are positive, supportive, and excited.

One last bit of advice. When someone shows up here or at TAM and says, "I don't feel comfortable with that idea." Don't spend your time trying to point out all the reasons why they shouldn't feel the way they do. Perhaps a bit of understanding and compassion would go a long way.

So how could this have went different? Simple! All it would have took was some form of the following.

"Great idea! I'm interested in attending. Here are some ideas I have that might work for everyone."

or,

"I can understand the reason for this event. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know, and if it doesn't work out, you are more than welcome to join us at the following."

See?? See the difference? Everyone would have felt good, it would have seemed welcoming and supportive, without being preachy or condescending. It avoided sarcasm and negativity, and it would have created a positive experience for all.

 

[DrDave]

Well, as much I would love to stick around and listen to all your amazing arguments...

I realize I'm not going to convince any of you of anything here because the last thing it appears anyone is interested in doing is looking at this with a critical eye. I am however going to attempt to summarize my interpretation of this post and skeptics in general.


This entire situation is the result of two threads.

In the first thread I attempted to start a new event at TAM for people who were in a similar situation as me. Because my experience at a previous TAM was not all that glorious, I decided perhaps I would approach it slightly different this time.

For those who aren't aware, I put out a general invitation to anyone who was attending TAM for the first time, single (romantically), or alone. The point was to see if there was any level of interest in this.

Turns out, there was! Within a day or so I had 4 people confirmed on the Facebook page. Others were being invited, and it seemed to have a good chance of becoming a successful event.

The thread itself started to gain a bit of traction as well, and some members, while hesitant, seemed interested.










However this is when the fun started. A few members of this forum seemed like they were more interested in questioning the idea, than supporting it. Sure, it started will small things.




While this seems like an innocent little observation, what it's actually saying, however subtle, is that this person finds that the reasons for wanting to create this event, isn't legitimate in their mind.

This is when I started having to explain a bit.




Now, here is where it started to wonky in my opinion. Here is what I said in my original post.





As you can see, in MY personal experience, it wasn't all that easy to meet people at TAM as some might claim. However, this was AdMan's response.




This seems like nice advice right? Sure, this person is letting me know that despite my experience, TAM attendees are generally friendly and all you have to do is simply follow these steps...easy cheesy!

What this person did in my opinion was discount my experience, assume I didn't try any of these things, and if I had it would have been smooth sailing. Knowing that this person may genuinely believe they're helping, I responded with a bit more clarification.




Now, at this point I feel any reasonable person would put two and two together. I think I made myself quite clear that while I understood that there were already avenues in place to meet people, myself, and possibly others might not be comfortable with those options. This again was the primary reason to start this event.

In my opinion, this should have been enough for people to say, "Ok, this person, for whatever reason didn't have any luck with the established events at TAM, and is wanting to start their own, I will support them if I can, or...I have nothing more to add."

However, this isn't what happened.




Now, how is this constructive? I didn't remember asking anyone for advice on becoming more confident, nor do I remember asking for a mental evaluation. Let me put this another way. This post was not constructive, what it did was start to call into question the reason for the event, and the abilities / personalities of the people interested.

Then we started losing the point. The conversation started to shift from support, to "defend TAM" , "Shoot down the idea", and "questioning the abilities of the people interested"

Here are some examples.




Who cares? Is this productive? Does this help in any way at all to point out potential negative outcomes?





What does this have to do with the event? My reasons and the reasons of others are really irrelevant. The only thing that really matters is that myself and others didn't feel comfortable, and were looking for an alternative.

The post above started to put me on the defensive. Instead of focusing on creating a good event, I was now being asked to explain my situation and my feelings.

I went on to explain a few things hoping that the clarification would be enough to allow people to say, "Ok, this person truly doesn't feel comfortable, I should either support this or leave."

But no....it continued.

More people started commenting on how "flabbergasted" they were that this was difficult for some, all the while missing the point. I wasn't asking for advice, I was asking for people to support the idea.

I'm not sure why this is difficult to understand. I was not interested in hearing all the reasons why this was confusing to people, I was interested in hearing from those who would be interested in the idea. Simple as that.

Here is the idea...are you interested? Yes, great...no, fine, go somewhere else.

But, I was still trying to be civil at this point, but growing increasingly frustrated that I was being required to defend myself and the idea to those who felt obligated to offer advice.




Personally, I think this post sums up much of what I'm trying to get across here. What you have in my opinion is what appears to be helpful advice, but what is really an insult. It creates this exaggerated situation of people just cowering in corners too afraid to approach anyone.

There is an undertone of judgement here that I took personally. It was again offering personal advice where none was asked for. I wasn't interested in hearing this persons advice on meeting people, that's not what I asked for.

In his last paragraph you can see one of the reasons why I started becoming upset. Again, I was asking if anyone was interested in the idea being presented...simple, are you interested yes or no?

Many of you may be looking at this wondering what I am on about, but I'll put it this way. This "friendly advice" was actually quite irritating. It was requiring me to defend myself personally (even if at this point it was subtle), and defend the idea. At no time were people saying, "This is cool, what can I do to help?" it was, "You can't be a stick in the mud, you should get out there and mingle, and here is how we all do it."

This continued for some time.










These posts are all basically not needed. They weren't adding anything to the conversation, but I felt I needed to explain myself because I didn't want anyone reading this who might be interested to be confused as to what the intention was or anything.

To me, these weren't very constructive. Did I ask for advice on meeting people? Did I appreciate being compared to an awkward middle school student? Where in any of these posts were positive suggestions offered?

I believe while the tone was civil, these posts were largely negative. They weren't offering anything constructive relating to the event. You have little sarcastic jabs, little "jokes", and generally nonsense.

However....then along came a new member.




100% exactly the reason why this idea was hatched in the first place. While it's a shame this person felt they needed to defend and explain themselves, it offered a suggestion, and it showed interest. Amazing!

Now imagine for a moment if you cut out all the previous posts above. Would this thread now feel welcoming and cool? I believe so wholeheartedly. This person sympathized with the idea, and was positive and encouraging.

The thread continued and kinda turned into this strange mixture of advice and suggestion. Because some were starting to focus on the event itself, I started to address those posts.

Earlier, I was quoted in a way that it made it seem like I was just shooting down ideas left, right, and centre. However, here is my full quote.






It seems I was pretty keen on finding an activity that everyone could do, and wasn't opposed to anything really. Sure I had my own personal reasons for not liking some of the suggestions, but I wasn't opposed to anything. All I was trying to do was make sure that the event /activity met EVERYONES needs.

Then....we had some awesomeness!




Simple, to the point with some good ideas. No "well we do this" or "I don't understand why this is so hard for you." Just simple, "great idea, here are some suggestions." a breath of fresh air.

Ohhhh....but then we had Captain Negative step in.




Unless you're a total moron, this person basically insulted everyone. Seriously, look at what they wrote. This person didn't add any positive suggestions, and they seemed to be suggesting that they weren't interested because they were already looking for a reason to get out of the situation if it didn't suit him.

This post added nothing of value in the least. It was negative and insulting and if this person didn't have anything to offer, and didn't like the idea, why were they even posting?

Don't think I read that right? Well they continued.




This person was already looking for reasons to piss off and find something else to do. Then they went on to suggest a bunch of "ideas". Honestly though...Never having met anyone of these people before, what makes this person think I am interested in some frat party shenanigans? What makes this person think these are in anyway appropriate suggestions for the most part?

However, I replied...




Now, you see that last paragraph? Even though I explained why I thought these ideas were totally stupid for anyone over the age of 15, I said, "sure, go ahead suggest it...if people are into it, great!"


Then we had come cool advice...but oh, here comes AdMan again to the rescue. What do you think happened? Do you think he offered up some cool ideas? Perhaps he posted a link to a website with some suggestions? MAybe he said, "This sounds awesome, I'll do what I can to help!"

Ready?




And congratulations captain obvious! Thanks for showing up to the conversation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we establish this already? Did we not already talk about Del Mar, bowling, sushi, and whatever? Geez man!

But hold on....I mean seriously. This gets better. We have already seen that for the most part there were a few people who seemed more interested in playing "head shrink" and explaining all the reasons why they weren't really interested...but then we have Suzie Saywhatever.




So after posting random pointless peanut gallery drivel in the thread for almost two pages, this person finally decided to show up and not only point out she wasn't going, but insult us, me, and the idea by saying she didn't want to be "trapped".

Eat my money sack man! As I responded, why would anyone want someone like this at the event? This little social butterfly didn't want to have to commit to some new people because this would stifle her ability to run around TAM spouting off her joyful drivel.

In what world is this a positive comment at all? How is this not rude?

This pissed me off. I hate people like this. They show up and think they're just the belle of the ball, when really it's just a lot of feathers and not much chicken. I'm old enough now that her "pretty face" doesn't impress me, so all I was witnessing was a rude little girl with nothing of value to add to the conversation but what she perceived to be "clever" little inside jokes and sarcasm.

Then after a few posts we came so your good friend and mine Horatius.






Wow, look at that! All those questions for me to answer. See how this person has basically labeled this whole idea a failure and presented it as such? This person entered into this conversation assuming that it was a bad idea. They didn't seem to care that seven people were signed up and that some others were taking interest.

They just assumed that I wasn't doing anything other than sitting on here rubbing peanut butter on myself with no idea or clue how to organize an event.

Lets face it, this post attempts to come off as helpful, but really all it's doing is bashing the idea with little actual helpful advice. This person chose to jump to conclusions instead of finding out the facts.

At this point I was becoming increasingly frustrated. Dealing with all these side topics was making my patience run thin.

I have seen this before, and I was foolish to engage in these conversations. These people show up and have no care at all what the actual point of the topic is about. They simply want to throw out advice and personal observation that sucks someone into a debate.

You see this a lot on fan forums. For example someone will say, "I'm wondering if anyone is interested in having a meet up for My Little Pony fans?"

Someone will inevitably come along (we like to call them trolls in the industry), and they will start to argue a topic that seems like it's part of the original question, but is actually designed to just get people going.

For example, "You know that it's weird for a guy to like My Little Pony right? I mean it's cool if you want to have a meet up, but there are a lot of better cartoons out there. Is Transformers fans always meet at the burger place on 4th, and really, I can't understand why you wouldn't wanna come out for that."

Instead of...."Sounds awesome, I like that show. We should meet at the taco place on 12th because it's yummy. I'll be there!"


Think this is stupid? Well here is a little something for ya. A few weeks ago I started a MLP meet up on Facebook. I asked if anyone was interested in coming out and we would figure out the details and time later. Guess what?

That's right, 33+ people attending! Not once have I had to deal with any crap. I have had a bunch of really awesome advice given for what to do and where to meet. People have been accommodating, helpful, supportive, and fun.

The idea has been positive and has attracted more and more people. People have been expressing how excited they are and have started getting to know each other through the event page. I am excited to go!

This was also happening on the Facebook page for the TAM event. This forum was full of negativity, and excuses to put the idea down, but over on the FB page people were friendly, excited, and being helpful.

Do you guys see the difference here? Does this make any sense to any of you at all?

Do you not understand how by offering up all your "advice" and questioning the idea you basically ruined it for everyone? Do you not see that you surrounded this thread with negativity and naysaying until it wasn't fun or exciting for anyone?

In the end, because of this thread and the other one, I would rather spend my time at another event. I'm not interested in attending something where so many people seem to feel it's appropriate to "nicely" shoot down others ideas and then claim, "Oh, I was being polite!"

Ya, you can still make someone feel like crap and still be polite. You can still make your posts appear to be helpful, but in reality are much more underhanded and destructive.

Anyway, what is done is done. I'm no longer interested in attending this, or any other TAM because based on my experience, there are other events out there where people are positive, supportive, and excited.

One last bit of advice. When someone shows up here or at TAM and says, "I don't feel comfortable with that idea." Don't spend your time trying to point out all the reasons why they shouldn't feel the way they do. Perhaps a bit of understanding and compassion would go a long way.

So how could this have went different? Simple! All it would have took was some form of the following.

"Great idea! I'm interested in attending. Here are some ideas I have that might work for everyone."

or,

"I can understand the reason for this event. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know, and if it doesn't work out, you are more than welcome to join us at the following."

See?? See the difference? Everyone would have felt good, it would have seemed welcoming and supportive, without being preachy or condescending. It avoided sarcasm and negativity, and it would have created a positive experience for all.

Tl;dr

Will you be at Scrut's penny slots meet up, or not?

 

[crazylegsmurphy]

Tl;dr

Will you be at Scrut's penny slots meet up, or not?

Too dumb, did not read.

 

[DrDave]

Too dumb, did not read.

I'm sorry that you're too dumb to read

 

[Horatius]

One last bit of advice. When someone shows up here or at TAM and says, "I don't feel comfortable with that idea." ....

"Great idea! I'm interested in attending. Here are some ideas I have that might work for everyone."

And here's a last bit of advice for you. When you go up to others and complain that you "don't feel comfortable with that idea", have an actual idea of your own to suggest. Don't just wait around for them to say "Great idea! I'm interested in attending. Here are some ideas I have that might work for everyone." If they had any great ideas that you wouldn't shoot down automatically, they'd have already been doing them.

 

[crazylegsmurphy]

And here's a last bit of advice for you. When you go up to others and complain that you "don't feel comfortable with that idea", have an actual idea of your own to suggest. Don't just wait around for them to say "Great idea! I'm interested in attending. Here are some ideas I have that might work for everyone." If they had any great ideas that you wouldn't shoot down automatically, they'd have already been doing them.

Don't agree. Example?

"Hey, anyone interested in being more active this summer?"
"Sure, what about rock climbing?"
"I don't think I would be comfortable with that because my upper body strength is lacking."
"Hmmm...any ideas then?"
"Not yet, still thinking...but if you have more please suggest them."

Just because I hadn't yet had the time to look up every single idea (remember there were 80 some days until TAM), that doesn't mean that wasn't considering something.

I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to comprehend the idea of seeing if people have a general interest and then working together to find something that works for everyone?

You people were the one who felt that the idea had to be decided NOW. I was perfectly happing taking my time and exploring different options. But, as we know, you were just looking for excuses and reasons to shoot the idea down.

I understand. Some people just have to see the world burn.

 

[Horatius]

(remember there were 80 some days until TAM), ...

You people were the one who felt that the idea had to be decided NOW.

You do realize that TAM is the largest Skeptics Conference in the world, right? You do realize that it has 9 years of history behind it right? You do realize that there are already so many official and unofficial meetups happening that time and space are at a huge premium, right? And you seriously think you can just waltz in and start a whole new event, with a poorly defined target audience, a poorly defined purpose, no defined activity, no defined location, and just hope that it all comes together somehow?

Dream on.

This isn't like your "My Little Pony" example. That had a well defined audience, a clear purpose, and absolutely no competition for the time and interest of that audience. If you can't see that difference, then you're beyond helping.

If you want to do something, get an idea, get it soon, and organize it.

 

[Phlebas]

Well, as much I would love to stick around and listen to all your amazing arguments...

"...I will continue to loiter on this thread and snap at anyone who responds to me with something other than glowing praise for me."

Didn't you already decide we're a bunch of jerks and that you're going to ComiCon? And weren't you attack Scrut for padding his post count?

1. Take a deep breath and start over.
2. Think of things you would like to do.
3. Suggest a few -- some of those things may already exist. Others may have been tried but encountered unforseen logistical problems.
4. If what you're interested in doesn't already happen, say "I'm going to do X at this time -- please join me if you're interested"
5. Invariably there will be a table listing details for all such events. If there isn't one now, Wowbagger is likely waiting for a special occasion to create it.
6. Solicit advice on how to spread the word to non-forum people. This is a road all extracurricular events walk, and many of the people you have spent the last three days insulting know a bunch of ways to spread the word.
7. IMPORTANT: Ignore people who are just jawing at you.

It's a formula that has worked time and again at TAM.


Good luck with your event. I hope you get an enjoyable crowd. With TAM people, any random grouping is probably going to be enjoyable.

 

[AdMan]

1. Take a deep breath and start over.
2. Think of things you would like to do.
3. Suggest a few -- some of those things may already exist. Others may have been tried but encountered unforseen logistical problems.
4. If what you're interested in doesn't already happen, say "I'm going to do X at this time -- please join me if you're interested"
5. Invariably there will be a table listing details for all such events. If there isn't one now, Wowbagger is likely waiting for a special occasion to create it.
6. Solicit advice on how to spread the word to non-forum people. This is a road all extracurricular events walk, and many of the people you have spent the last three days insulting know a bunch of ways to spread the word.
7. IMPORTANT: Ignore people who are just jawing at you.

And now he has a week's holiday to think about all this.

 

[Dicon]

As I've followed along with this thread from its humble beginnings, I've always had an odd feeling that something just wasn't right. It seemed like we were perhaps experiencing a cosmic displacement where two almost-identical universes were occasionally bumping into each other. One of those universes contained the thread I was reading; the other apparently had a thread with slight variations that I could not observe directly, even though I could measure their effect.

Instead, I have had to deal with pages of people blasting the idea and basically calling me an idiot for not liking the other events.

For example, in the thread I read, absolutely no one called the OP an idiot. No one even "basically" called the OP an idiot. A lot was said about his meetup idea, but that is not the same thing. Apparently there are some name-calling meanies in that other universe.

More people started commenting on how "flabbergasted" they were that this was difficult for some, all the while missing the point. I wasn't asking for advice, I was asking for people to support the idea.

And here's another example! Since the poster put quotes around "flabbergasted" it is safe to assume he is directly quoting another message. But a quick search reveals that word was never used by anyone in this universe. Must be one of those name-calling meanies in the alternate space... I can see how they might be prone by blustery words like "flabbergasted."

I'm going to stick with this universe. The people are nicer.

 

[hcmom]

As I've followed along with this thread from its humble beginnings, I've always had an odd feeling that something just wasn't right. It seemed like we were perhaps experiencing a cosmic displacement where two almost-identical universes were occasionally bumping into each other. One of those universes contained the thread I was reading; the other apparently had a thread with slight variations that I could not observe directly, even though I could measure their effect.

Exactly this!!

I've refrained from posting because I can't help but feel I'm missing something really important.

It helps some to have a bit of understanding of who some of the people involved are, (like what to expect from Scrut) (and then just be amused by it, or ignore it, whichever works best for you) but really, if a crowd of people bothers you in general, why seek it out at all?

 

[Horatius]

I wasn't asking for advice, I was asking for people to support the idea.

I think there was some "TAM virgins" thing last time, but I think it would be cool to officially organize a singles meet up. The thought is that people who are attending the conference as a single person (not involved with anyone), as a single person (attending alone), or as a new person (never been to TAM before), could all meet up with the option of having some cool people to hang out with.

Thoughts?

One of these things is not like the other.

 

[AdMan]

Exactly this!!

I've refrained from posting because I can't help but feel I'm missing something really important.

It helps some to have a bit of understanding of who some of the people involved are, (like what to expect from Scrut) (and then just be amused by it, or ignore it, whichever works best for you) but really, if a crowd of people bothers you in general, why seek it out at all?

After his half-paranoid wall of text in which he interpreted innocuous posts as personal attacks, I gave up on trying to address him. Waste of time.

 

[rustypouch]

After his half-paranoid wall of text in which he interpreted innocuous posts as personal attacks, I gave up on trying to address him. Waste of time.

But it's always fun playing a guessing game with someone who doesn't know what they want, holds you responsible for finding it for them, and gets mad for not liking any suggestions.

 

[SkepticScott]

I'm sorry this didn't work out, crazylegsmurphy. I'm a single, veteran TAMmer, so my interest was for different reasons than a first TAMmer couple. *sigh*


For any first-time attendees several of us (*) have chipped in for "First TAMmer" calligraphic buttons. If you want people to know this is your first TAM, you can wear one as an ice-breaker. Be sure to go to the Forum table early to get your free button because the go fast. (**)

* Allecher, CriticalThanking, Paul C. Anagnostopoulos, Wowbagger, and I

** The first time we did this, there were only 100 buttons and I don't think they even made it to the Forum table.

 

[Phlebas]

And now he has a week's holiday to think about all this.

Apparently that vacation has been extended to eternity. I hope it's not too crowded there.

 

[rustypouch]

Apparently that vacation has been extended to eternity. I hope it's not too crowded there.

Awww... he liked us so much that he couldn't bear to spend any time apart from us. Sigh...

 

[TheGoldcountry]

The irony is, he repeatedly stated that he was tired of the bullies and didn't want to participate here anymore, yet he scrambled to concoct a new account as soon as he was suspended.

 

[AdMan]

Deleted--member has been banned so I think it's unnecessary for me to post any more about him.