Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

You don't have to see what happened to say that you heard calls for help,

No one disputes there were calls for help.

and so far (I've only started to looking into this from the time I first posted in this thread), the girl seems to have said that she distinctly heard a boy's voice

She said she heard a "little boy" screaming for help. Neither person was a "little boy", both are well past puberty and have adult voices. She can't possibly have known who was screaming for help without actually seeing it. And as it turns out, there's at least 1 witness (maybe 2) who actually saw Zimmerman screaming for help. No one saw Martin screaming for help.

Also, the ONLY way to end up in a physical confrontation with someone who running away from you is if you actively chase them down on foot. Martin's actions, even stated on the 911 call by Zimmerman, are those of the person seeking to avoid the situation. Zimmerman's are those of the physical aggressor.

Or Martin decided he wasn't going to run any more (which is what the girl he was on the phone with said he told her) and decided to confront the man who was following him.

 

[This is The End]

I would think that Martin approached Zimmerman from what I have read. Zimmerman was following Martin, but it was Martin who decided to close the distance and ask Zimmerman why he was following. It was Martin who initiated the personal contact between the two, imo.

I must have missed some reports. What backs up that assumption? M closed the gap on Z??

On what basis? Because you would know that? I fail to see how you can be sure of this.

And given the comment, "the always get away", it suggests Z was frustrated and might have attempted to stop T thinking he'd do that and present T to the police when they arrived.

I think the biggest piece of evidence, that Z possibly did more than just follow, was that Z was close enough to M for M to ask Z what he wanted!

That is not how close you follow someone if you are just keeping an eye on them.

LTC8K6 says above there is some evidence that they were so close because M closed the gap on Z. I would really like to see that.

LTC8K6 since you responded to a newer post of mine, could you respond to this one?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What are you talking about. Changed it to 3? The headline has been 3 the entire time!! Go look at RandFans post! The one you chastised. 3 being new news is the whole point..

Apologies. I misremembered this fomr the article:
Record Count: 4
With the title of the article. Yes, I botched it.

I almost didn't click RandFans link because you immediately claimed it was old news. If RandFan hadn't put the headline with the link I would never have found out about the violent battery on an officer charge.

At any rate you understand it was the same incident and saw the other explanations in the thread, right ?

 

[sgtbaker]

Do you have a link for that? I find that QUITE amusing!! In fact, almost Stundie worthy!!

Awesome failure!!
LOL

Sonner, the attorney representing the 28-year-old volunteer neighborhood watch captain who shot and killed Florida teen, Trayvon Martin, last month, spoke with CNN's Anderson Cooper Friday revealing he's not heard the 911 tapes and he doesn't know the details of what happened the night his client shot and killed Trayvon....snip

Continue reading on Examiner.com Zimmerman’s attorney hasn’t heard 911 tapes, doesn’t know details of shooting - National unsolved cases | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-ca...oesn-t-know-details-of-shooting#ixzz1qSUJcrWa

When asked what his client had told him about the night he shot Trayvon Martin, Sonner said:

“I believe he should have made a statement to police at that time. I think he did. I don’t know for a fact because I haven’t seen the police reports on this case.

“I have not discussed the evening of what occurred at that time. I think that will come out through the investigation process done by law enforcement,” he said.

Cooper asked:

“You haven’t discussed any of the details of that night with him?”

Sonner replied:

“No.”

Cooper asked why.



Continue reading on Examiner.com Zimmerman’s attorney hasn’t heard 911 tapes, doesn’t know details of shooting - National unsolved cases | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-ca...oesn-t-know-details-of-shooting#ixzz1qSU5MrUp

/facepalm

 

[This is The End]

You can draw more than one charge from the same incident.

Does everyone respond to that the same way?

It was never in question that they were or were not from the same incident. That has nothing to do with the first charge never being discussed and the second charge being discussed plenty. The article is about whether or not those charges were all closed because he is the son of a judge. That go be used to determine why charges were not pressed in this case as well. There is a history of support for Z from that police department.

I don't write the article. That has nothing to do with discussing the article.

George Zimmerman, Son of a Retired Judge, Has 3 Closed Arrests

 

[EGarrett]

Well a lot of what you are just picking up has been sorted out or even outright disproven much earlier, so don't take it personally if people don't want to rehash it.

Anyway, whether the pot claim was against Zimmerman or against Martin...

No, that wouldn't stop you from getting a permit. Convicted felon, adjudicated incompetent, or medically determined to be addicted to narcotics is a far cry from your list.

http://app1.licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/firearms/prequal_questions.aspx

I would just like to point out that in any other thread, this would really turn into a bunch of people citing articles about the law treats women in DV situations with kid gloves, usually assuming that the man is the violent one, despite the fact that women are usually the initiators of DV.

Really? A *********** speeding ticket? I guess we are all potential killers.

I'm reading more. The pot claim was against Martin, Zimmerman has the domestic violence claim, a restraining order, violently resisting police and had to take an alcohol education course.

IMO, it's unfortunate that he was allowed to plea his case down to resisting arrest without violence, because even giving a false name to police is RAWOV.

He was then allowed to participate in a pre-trial diversion program, so no convictions are on his records, only arrests.

But, in Florida, if you're convicted of one of those crimes, and you do your time, and 3 years have passed, you're eligible for a CWP.

I don't like it either.

Is it standard procedure for the police to not arrest, detain OR investigate the killer when there is a claim of self-defense? It seems so bizarre.

Nope, just making **** up as he goes along. We should be used to it by now.

I don't know who you're referring to with this statement, but when I come in a thread and haven't read the whole thing, I actually say it and have apologized in advance for mistakes. If I know what I'm talking about, I will say that as well and debate you on any one of those issues. Given the tone of your post, I'll happily debate you specifically as well.

"May?"

Well, the Amanda Knox threads eventually stretched over 60,000 posts total when I stopped counting. This one is barely 1/20th of the way there...so there's some ground to cover before it even approaches the never-ending exhaustiveness of the Knox discussion.

 

[crimresearch]

Do you believe that there is a reasonable defense that takes into account Zimmerman's threatening behavior and aggressive actions towards Martin, as well as Martin's established non-aggressive evading of Zimmerman? It's hard to imagine Zimmerman being able to say much outside of "Yeah when I was on the phone with you I was pissed and swearing and following him against your advice and ran after him when he ran away, but when you guys got off the phone and all the witnesses weren't looking he turned into 140-pounds of crazed-black-fury and attacked me from behind while simultaneously talking to his girlfriend and expertly imitating a pre-fight conversation where he asks why I'm following him and then doing my voice asking why he's around here in order to make it appear that there was not yet another moment where he did not act aggressively and I continued to pursue the situation instead of leaving him alone."

As I've said a lot, I wouldn't accept anyone's self-defense claim if *all* they had was 'I was getting my butt whipped so I shot him'. The use of force has to be proportionate, and the threat has to be credible.

Almost as if on cue, the 'He went for my gun' assertion appeared.

That does tip the scales in the shooter's favor, unless (again) the prosecution can make it appear uneasonable within the rules of evidence and courtroom procedure.

Right now I don't think it is a sure thing either way in largest part because I don't think we know everything that a jury will ultimately know.

 

[This is The End]

Arrrrrrggggggghhhhh!

The actual charge was "resisting arrest without violence.

Yeah, just keep bringing up the 2nd charge. Even if it was a reduced charge, that is what the whole article was about. Whether or not he gets charges reduced because he was the son of a judge.

There were 2 charges. Whether or not they are from the same incident has nothing to do with the fact that he was charged with:

RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER

2005-CF-009525-A-O
ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
10/05/1983

07/18/2005
Div 10
OKane, Julie H

Criminal Felony
Closed

CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE
BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER

------------

2005-MM-010436-A-O
ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
10/05/1983

07/18/2005
Orlando
Miller, W Michael

Misdemeanor
Closed

CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITHOUT VIOLENCE

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Cite, please.

We don't have an official police report yet.

The initial report you linked to is a *partial* report.

The details re: zimmerman were leaked to the orlando sentinel. The SPD subsequently declined to disagree with the leaked info.

So, think of it as a free preview of what's in the complete report.

ETA: link : http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Police have been reluctant to provide details about their evidence.

But after the Sentinel story appeared online Monday morning, City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. issued a news release, saying there would be an internal-affairs investigation into the source of the leak and, if identified, the person or people involved would be disciplined.

He did not challenge the accuracy of the information.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yeah, just keep bringing up the 2nd charge. Even if it was a reduced charge, that is what the whole article was about. Whether or not he gets charges reduced because he was the son of a judge.

There were 2 charges. Whether or not they are from the same incident has nothing to do with the fact that he was charged with:

RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER

Lets solve it this way. He wasn't the son of a judge. His father was a magistrate in PW county VA.

If you search this thread for magistrate, you can find more info (along with a pissing contest between me an crimresearch - ignore that )

 

[This is The End]

I just did a search on this thread for the first charge "violence battery on law enforcement officer" and it first appears in my post above. It could have been buried in a link. I have read every post since day 1. I have not clicked every link.

The other charge, on the other hand, "resisting officer without violence" was brought up dozens of times, here's just a few:

The charge was "resisting arrest without violence".

Not an assault.

Not that many people in this thread give a damn about actual facts.

And to show that they're going to bring up a charge for resisting arrest without violence?

It wasn't assault, the exact charge was "resisting arrest without violence".

The charge was "resisting arrest without violence". Something you see all the time wrt demonstrations all over the country, yet I doubt you get so outraged over those identical incidents.

100 posts after the above post:

Arrrrrrggggggghhhhh!

The actual charge was "resisting arrest without violence.

 

[This is The End]

Lets solve it this way. He wasn't the son of a judge. His father was a magistrate in PW county VA.

If you search this thread for magistrate, you can find more info (along with a pissing contest between me an crimresearch - ignore that )

Yeah I didn't write the article. I'm commenting on the article.

His father still was a prominent member of the community.

Either he had pull with the cops or he didn't. That's what we're trying to determine. Changing the name of his fathers prominent position doesn't really debunk that.

 

[crimresearch]

Right. I just covered that in the post you quoted! All charges were dismissed. That was the whole point of the article. It is questioning whether that happened because he was a son of a judge.

Nothing changes the fact that no one posted in this entire thread until almost post #3000 that he was charged with "violent battery on an officer". People talked about the other charge plenty.

Sticking to facts might not be nearly as dramatic... but possibly more useful. Clearly he was charged with resisting with violence, and it was whittled down. But:

What kind of 'retired judge' is powerful enough to get charges dismissed in another state to exactly what they would have been in thousands of similar cases? (Ever heard of Spring Break? Do you really imagine that all those kids serve hard time?)

Especially since it has been shown that Zimmerman's claim about his father was exaggerated, to put it mildly?

ETA: It adds pebbles, not boulders to the perception that Zimmerman had a history of altercations. That could be brought up at trial.

 

[EGarrett]

No one disputes there were calls for help.

You said she didn't see what happened. She doesn't need to see for what she claimed so that is irrelevant.

She said she heard a "little boy" screaming for help. Neither person was a "little boy", both are well past puberty and have adult voices. She can't possibly have known who was screaming for help without actually seeing it. And as it turns out, there's at least 1 witness (maybe 2) who actually saw Zimmerman screaming for help. No one saw Martin screaming for help.

Really, who is more likely to sound like a "little boy," a 140-pound 17-year-old high school student, or a 250-pound 28-year-old man? She also had the police contradict her statement by telling her it was Zimmerman, which as has been pointed out, has tainted her.

Or Martin decided he wasn't going to run any more (which is what the girl he was on the phone with said he told her) and decided to confront the man who was following him.

Which is the logical thing to do when someone you don't know stares at you, follows you in a car, obstructs your path, then gets out of the car and chases you on foot when you try to run away. It's quite reasonable to conclude at that point that you are going to have to deal with that person in one way or another. And again, it is not possible to have a physical confrontation with someone who is running away from you unless you physically pursue them. And when you are chasing someone who has committed no crime, doesn't know you and is running away from you, you are the one provoking confrontation.

 

[nadsat]

http://rollingout.com/culture/george-zimmerman-son-of-a-retired-judge-has-3-closed-arrests/

it should be noted that the article (linked above) claiming 3 charges has been updated with this:

Note: It has been brought to our attention that George Zimmerman has been arrested one time, not three, and that the charges against him were dropped after he completed a pre-trial diversion program. The additional two charges stem from the same incident on the same date.

And I'm taking credit because this is what I wrote to them:

Hello. Thank you for posting Zimmerman's record but the author has
misread his own posting and has falsely asserted that Zimmerman was
arrested three times. Zimmerman has been arrested one time for
interfering in a friends arrest in a bar for underage drinking and he
received the "resisting an officer with violence" for pushing a state
alcohol agent. Note the first 2 charges are from the same date and
stems from the same incident. Both charges were dropped after
Zimmerman attended a pretrial diversion program that is offered to
people with no prior arrests. The 2 bottom items on his record is from
when his ex-fiance filed a restraining order on him and he re-filed a
restraining order on her after they got in a fight. George Zimmerman
has been arrested one time.

Please fix these false assertions and mistakes if you care about the
truth and stop people from spinning unproductive and potentially
damaging conspiracies by stoking the flame.

Respectfully,
-edit-

 

[nadsat]

article adding some context surrounding the altercation

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...nity-was-on-edge-before-trayvon-shooting.html

Zimmerman’s Twin Lakes Community Was on Edge Before Trayvon Shooting

George Zimmerman called police 46 times in the years before he shot Trayvon Martin. As far as the cops were concerned, that wasn’t excessive in a neighborhood fighting petty crime, reports Amy Green.

-snip-

Conversations with several residents, however, suggest that Zimmerman’s calls reflect a wider feeling of concern and distrust in the community. For years, Twin Lakes residents had been on edge—demonstrated by their decision last September to start a neighborhood-watch organization, which was initiated by Zimmerman himself. The burglary of Olivia Bertalan’s home was just one of at least eight reported over the previous 14 months—several of which, neighbors said, involved young black men. On Feb. 26, the odds were stacked against Martin: he was a young black man in a neighborhood that was feeling besieged by crime and blaming it—fairly or not—on people who looked like him.

Three weeks before Martin’s death another Twin Lakes resident arrived home to discover a kitchen window open and a laptop and gold necklaces missing. Two witnesses said they saw a young black man standing nearby, but they did not see the man break into the home, according to a police report. One witness said he believed it was the same man who had stolen his bike. The next day officers responding to a call confronted three black men and one white man on bikes near the neighborhood. The same witnesses identified one of the men as the same man they saw near the burglarized home. The officers found the laptop in the man's backpack.

Last July a rental car was stolen from one townhome along with the car keys, which were inside on a dining room table. The resident awoke in the morning to discover her sliding glass door open. The car was eventually found abandoned. In August a PlayStation and videogames were stolen from another townhome. In September someone vandalized a townhome under construction. In December someone broke into a foreclosed townhome, stopped up a toilet and started the water running. According to a police report, the water flooded the bedroom and caused drywall in the garage to collapse.

-snip-

 

[WildCat]

Then, in an interview that I read, yesterday, he admits to not reading the police report, listening to the 911 tapes, or speaking to Zimmerman about the incident. WTH?

Are you sure that wasn't his friend Oliver, and not his lawyer?

 

[This is The End]

Sticking to facts might not be nearly as dramatic... but possibly more useful. Clearly he was charged with resisting with violence, and it was whittled down.

I'm not disputing that, but look at how the record reads. Two separate charges, and two separate instances of the word closed.

2005-CF-009525-A-OZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
10/05/1983

07/18/2005
Div 10 OKane, Julie H
Criminal Felony Closed
CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE
BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER

------------

2005-MM-010436-A-OZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
10/05/1983

07/18/2005
Orlando Miller, W Michael
Misdemeanor Closed
CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITHOUT VIOLENCE

Therefore I find it is bad form to only talk about the 2nd one for 60 some odd pages and then me finding out about the first one almost by accident.

 

[sgtbaker]

Are you sure that wasn't his friend Oliver, and not his lawyer?

I linked the article from where I read it. The article quotes a conversation between Zimmerman's attorney, Craig Sonner, and Anderson Cooper.

This concerns me because it wasn't until his lawyer began speaking publicly that the, "he went for my gun..." part of the claim, appeared. I assumed that his lawyer was citing that from the police report. Hearing he hasn't even read the police report makes me step back a little bit. I may be wrong on when the fight for the gun, aspect appeared, though.

 

[RandFan]

Actually, there is usually something new or useful every page or three.

This thread could use a sticky FAQ though.

That might actually be a good idea.