Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Dancing David]

I swear, if your name calling choices didn't amuse me so much I would put you on ignore.

Give it another year.

 

[leftysergeant]

I swear, if your name calling choices didn't amuse me so much I would put you on ignore.

Well, it should be made clear right now that Martin had reason to think that this creep he was dealing with was not much of a man, but that that did not make himm harmless.

Of course, even a coward can act like a badass when he has back-up.

Once Martin knew that the punk had a gun, it would have been logical to assume that he would use it, thus he had no reason to stop beating him. Once again, we have no evidence of Martin's having acted in an unreasonable manner, but plenty that Z was losing it from the first phone contact.

No allowances for what a "rational" person might do can be applied to justify Z's actions.

 

[Giz]

So if say 99% of break-ins in the neighborhood had been committed by young men, he may have considered a young man walking the neighborhood at night worthy of observing?

Is it your further contention that if a 50 year old woman of any color had walked by, that he wouldn't have been torn as to whether to switch pursuit?

What healthy human brain would go in for such profiling?

Personally, I assume geriatrics in my neighborhood are just as likely to be cat burglars as the young adults... I'd rather be robbed than be age-ist.

 

[Alt+F4]

Well from what I've looked up, Zimmerman has the burden of proof to show that Martin actually attacked him first, which is going to be an uphill battle given his aggravated speech and aggressive pursuit of Martin while Martin was attempting to flee.

This I agree with, I think you are right.

Furthermore he apparently had the gun in a visible holster while pursuing Martin, which would actually mean that Martin was justified even if Martin attacked him first.

This I disagree with. If Zimmerman had a visible holster it makes it much less likely that Martin would have attacked him first. What unarmed person would attack someone they saw had a gun?

 

[Giz]

There's such thing as an in-waistband holster? That's gotta be pinchy and uncomfortable.

Well spotted - I hope you practice grammatical law.

At any rate, I'd think a gun on the inside of your waistband would still be fairly conspicuous; unless you have to reach all the way into your pants to draw it. Wouldn't the gun handle be sticking out above the waistband?

Typically, there's loose clothing covering it (i.e. a long, untucked, shirt). Of course, if one were to be punched into the horizontal... your shirt might ride up.

 

[Alt+F4]

Lose the hoodie, it adds years to you.

Thank you dear, I try.

 

[crimresearch]

At any rate, I'd think a gun on the inside of your waistband would still be fairly conspicuous; unless you have to reach all the way into your pants to draw it. Wouldn't the gun handle be sticking out above the waistband?

Not everyone uses them to carry a flintlock.

Seriously, the KelTec 9 is a logical choice to go inside one.

 

[nadsat]

The four lives of this thread, we will enter the fifth soon. Fortunately the name calling has stilled for a while.

I follow another forum that consists of a good 30 to 40% conspiracy theorists on this same topic and both thread look exactly the same. What is it about this subject that makes so called skeptics so irrational?

 

[AlBell]

I think that's being generous. Right now he seems to be plugging his ears and saying "La-la-la- not listening".

I don't believe that even Wildcat believes that Zimmerman accidentally followed and accidentally approached Martin.

That's just silly.

Not as silly as the bunch here who've already tried and convicted Zimmerman.

http://townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/2012/03/28/a_postracial_lynch_mob

the Non-Fox Media (NFM, and JREFers) didn't even pause before conjuring a racist plot in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin in Florida last month.
Like Captain Ahab searching for the Great White Whale, the NFM is constantly on the hunt for proof of America as "Mississippi Burning."

Over St. Patrick's Day weekend, the month after Martin was killed, gangs in Chicago shot 10 people dead, including a 6-year-old girl, Aliyah Shell, who was sitting with her mother on their front porch.

One imagines MSNBC hosts heaving a sign of relief that little Aliyah was not shot by a white man, and was thus spared the horror of being a victim of racism.

As it happens, Trayvon Martin wasn't shot by a white man either, but by George Zimmerman, a mixed-race Hispanic who lives in a diverse (47 percent white) gated community and tutors black kids.

But Hispanic is close enough for the NFM. They're chasing the Great White Whale of racist America and don't have time to check to see if the whale is actually a guppy.

Since the cat leapt out of the bag on Zimmerman being Hispanic, the media have begun calling him a "white Hispanic."

Not being a race-obsessed liberal, I don't particularly care, but it's indisputable that Zimmerman is brown. I saw his face carved on the side of a Mayan temple in the Yucatan. Using his mother's maiden name, he would be admitted to the University of Michigan law school on a full scholarship.

Apart from that, pretty much all that is known with certainty is that Zimmerman called the police to report a suspicious character in his neighborhood, and shortly thereafter he shot and killed Martin.

On the basis of little else, the media conjured a Hollywood script: A "white" man was "stalking" a little black kid -- who could be Obama's son! -- confronted him, beat him senseless as the small black child screamed for help, and finally shot the kid dead, "just because he was black."

Two weeks of nonstop hysteria later, it turns out that every part of that gripping plot is based on nothing that could be called a reasonable assumption, much less a fact.

Yes, I added the bolded words, not Ann.

CNN ceaselessly reported the allegation that Zimmerman could be heard in the background of one 911 call using an archaic racial epithet. Before playing the tape, correspondent Gary Tuchman first announced what the slur was supposed to be ("f*****g coon").

There's nothing like suggesting the answer in advance to improve reliability! Police should try that in lineups.

Then the same network that couldn't find the Jeremiah Wright tapes for sale in a church lobby brought in "one of the best audio experts in the business" to enhance the tape -- take the bass away here, add volume there -- and played the 1.6-second loop again and again, just in case you were not suggestible enough the first time.

Still, all that can be heard on the enhanced tape is "cha-chu, cha-chu, cha-chu."

But Tuchman wrapped up this demonstration by saying, "You know, it sounds like this allegation could be accurate, but I wouldn't swear to it in court. That's what it sounds like to me."

To the small percentage of CNN's audience with triple-digit IQs, it was comedy gold. The only thing missing was Tipper Gore playing the audio backward to reveal satanic lyrics.

(Incidentally, the Nexis transcript of the indecipherable "cha-chu" sound reads: "ZIMMERMAN: F*****g coons, f*****g coons. F*****g coons. F*****g coons. F*****g coons." Except it doesn't use asterisks.)

All this may give you an inkling of why we rely on the criminal justice system to determine guilt in criminal cases and not the fervid imaginations of the race-obsessed media (and JREFers).

On the conviction of Racist ...

http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2012/03/28/profiling

Right now, there isn't enough known about the circumstances surrounding the fatal shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, a black, by George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old part-Hispanic, during his neighborhood watch tour in an Orlando, Fla., suburb. If evidence emerges that Zimmerman's actions were not justified, he should be prosecuted and punished; however, there's a larger issue that few people understand or have the courage to acknowledge, namely that black and young has become synonymous with crime and, hence, suspicion. To make that connection does not make one a racist. Let's look at it.

Twelve years ago, a black Washington, D.C., commissioner warned cabbies, most of whom were black, against picking up dangerous-looking passengers. She described "dangerous-looking" as a "young black guy ... with shirttail hanging down longer than his coat, baggy pants, unlaced tennis shoes." She also warned cabbies to stay away from low-income black neighborhoods. Did that make the D.C. commissioner a racist?

The former Charleston, S.C., black chief of police, Reuben Greenberg, said the problem facing black America is not racial profiling. He said, "The greatest problem in the black community is the tolerance for high levels of criminality." Former Los Angeles black police Chief Bernard Parks, defending racial profiling, said: "It's not the fault of the police when they stop minority males or put them in jail. It's the fault of the minority males for committing the crime. In my mind, it is not a great revelation that if officers are looking for criminal activity, they're going to look at the kind of people who are listed on crime reports." Are former police Chiefs Greenberg and Parks racist?

According to the Uniform Crime Report for 2009, among people 18 or younger, blacks were charged with 58 percent of murder and non-negligent manslaughter, 67 percent of robberies, 42 percent of aggravated assaults and 43 percent of auto thefts. As for murder, more than 90 percent of the time, their victims were black. These statistics, showing a strong interconnection among race, youth and crime, are a far better explanation for racial profiling and suspicion than simple racism.

I agree Zimmerman's story makes little sense, and at least a charge of manslaughter will hopefully be forthcoming (iff the actual evidence warrants it).

 

[WildCat]

What about the witnesses that DON'T support your story, and say that the person who you killed was screaming for help?

You mean the witness who admits she didn't actually see it and told reporters a different story than she told the police? That witness?

What about the fact that the person you killed was trying to flee from you while you pursued physical confrontation?

There's no evidence for that assertion.

 

[EGarrett]

OK, thanks. I think it was reported a few pages back the policed recovered some sort of waistband holster.


ETA: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8149170&highlight=waistband#post8149170
IDK if it was an inside waistband - but I assume it would be - which means not visible, not brandishing, right ?

Well from what I've read, Florida doesn't issue permits to alcoholics, drug-addicts, and "mental incompetents" and Zimmerman was on record as violently resisting a police officer, being accused of domestic violence, and being ordered to undergo alcohol education, as well as having possessed an empty marijuana bag at one point in his past...so I assumed that there was no way he would be able to have a concealed weapon. It would be sad if I was wrong.

 

[Checkmite]

Typically, there's loose clothing covering it (i.e. a long, untucked, shirt). Of course, if one were to be punched into the horizontal... your shirt might ride up.

Well? Was Zimmerman wearing long loose clothing?

 

[WildCat]

What happened to, 'Zimmerman said Martin came out of nowhere and jumped him from behind without provocation as he was walking back to his car.'?

That's not what Zimmerman told the police, so it's really irrelevant. By all accounts words were exchanged before a punch was thrown.

 

[Giz]

Well? Was Zimmerman wearing long loose clothing?

Was he wearing speedo's? You seem to have all the answers.

 

[nadsat]

Well from what I've read, Florida doesn't issue permits to alcoholics, drug-addicts, and "mental incompetents" and Zimmerman was on record as violently resisting a police officer, being accused of domestic violence, and being ordered to undergo alcohol education, as well as having possessed an empty marijuana bag at one point in his past...so I assumed that there was no way he would be able to have a concealed weapon. It would be sad if I was wrong.

this guy is trolling right? lol

 

[Checkmite]

Was he wearing speedo's? You seem to have all the answers.

Is that why I ask so many questions?

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

I follow another forum that consists of a good 30 to 40% conspiracy theorists on this same topic and both thread look exactly the same. What is it about this subject that makes so called skeptics so irrational?

Anything with sex, race or politics and this place turns in to Jerry Springer. People are angry, and they're not going to take it any more!

Even if it never happened, or it turns out they should take it, because they've had an emotional response and chosen a side.

 

[WildCat]

So would medical documents or mention in the police report. All of which have been conspicuously absent...

It's on the police report, and medical records will be available in a trial but not released to the public.

 

[EGarrett]

This I disagree with. If Zimmerman had a visible holster it makes it much less likely that Martin would have attacked him first. What unarmed person would attack someone they saw had a gun?

If the person follows you in a car, obstructs your path, then gets out of the car and starts running after you after you try to get away, it would seem that the person won't leave you alone and is determined to get their hands on you. In which case it would seem that you have little choice BUT to defend yourself.

By the way, I was under the impression that Zimmerman could not have had a concealed carry license due to multiple circumstances in his history, but in fact it may be that the gun was hidden. Regardless, his pursuit was still aggressive and obviously we don't know when the gun came out.

You mean the witness who admits she didn't actually see it and told reporters a different story than she told the police? That witness?

There's no evidence for that assertion.

You don't have to see what happened to say that you heard calls for help, and so far (I've only started to looking into this from the time I first posted in this thread), the girl seems to have said that she distinctly heard a boy's voice and the police are the ones who tried to tell her otherwise. Inconsistencies like this are a problem when the Burden of Proof is on Zimmerman.

Also, the ONLY way to end up in a physical confrontation with someone who running away from you is if you actively chase them down on foot. Martin's actions, even stated on the 911 call by Zimmerman, are those of the person seeking to avoid the situation. Zimmerman's are those of the physical aggressor.

 

[Checkmite]

A broken nose was not in the police report.