Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Checkmite]

Yes, that's one possible scenario.

We already have GZ reporting that TM was walking slow. I have no problem believing that, and assuming he was walking very slowly because he was on the phone with his GF. Perhaps the closer he got , the slower he walked because he was still on the phone ?

So GM likely does not have to be walking incredibly fast to 'catch up.'

Do you find this scenario unrealistic or implausible in any way ?

It's also entirely possible TM got irritated at being followed and stopped to see if he was still being followed. Or he felt comfortable because he was close enough to home. There are lots of possibilities.

Any of those is perfectly plausible, but none of them changes anything. No matter how fast he had to walk to catch up, what matters is that he did. He persisted on following Martin until he was close enough to talk to. Wildcat's objection to the word "chase" because he seems to think it doesn't count as chasing unless its a dead running pursuit seems gratuitously and pointlessly contrarian.

 

[Information Analyst]

Ok - here is my attempt at mapping out according to 911 call.

If there are glaring mistakes, it is not due to any agenda, just trying to visualize what happened.

Feel free to point out where I have gone wrong.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_500444f71cc7a02395.jpg[/qimg]

This assumes Zimmerman spotted Martin either crossing or having already crossed Retreat View Circle onto Twin Trees Lane. Zimmerman would have to be sure that's where Martin was headed, in order to drive down there to get ahead of him. I would, however, question whether Zimmerman's vehicle was as close to the mailboxes at that, given that he gave directions of: "straight past the clubhouse and make a left*, and they go past the mailboxes, they'll see my truck..." He's emphatic about the "turn left" several times in recording, so clearly that's the more important reference point than the mailboxes.

More to the point, being on that first corner would put him only around 40 metres from the crossroads. If Martin was crossing Retreat View Circle when Zimmerman spotted him, even walking at a slow pace Martin would have passed him and been most of the way along the horizontal section of Twin Trees Lane well before the point in the call recording when Zimmerman said he was still coming towards him. On top of that, the horizontal section is only about 75 metres long, again Martin would have traversed it in less than that time, even if Zimmerman was parked up as far along as the crossing at the footpath/right turn.

* Aside: in UK terminology, that would be "follow the round round to the left," rather than "turn left." Not sure if Zimmerman's choice of words in standard in the US.

 

[WildCat]

Any of those is perfectly plausible, but none of them changes anything. No matter how fast he had to walk to catch up, what matters is that he did. He persisted on following Martin until he was close enough to talk to. Wildcat's objection to the word "chase" because he seems to think it doesn't count as chasing unless its a dead running pursuit seems gratuitously and pointlessly contrarian.

My only objection is that people are inferring he intended to catch Martin. To grab him, to detain him, to arrest him, whatever. There's absolutely no indication of that. In fact, all evidence points to Zimmerman following Martin in order to point him out to the police, not to catch him himself. I'm sure Zimmerman is aware he can't detain persons he finds suspicious, and he would be committing a crime if he did so. It makes absolutely no sense that this was his intent.

 

[Information Analyst]

Again, the girlfriends account showed up three weeks late to the game.
Zimmerman's account:
TM: Do you have a problem?
GZ: No
TM: You do now.(assault begins.) This was in the initial police report. Conveniently not release until this morning... a month later.

<devilsadvocate>Zimmerman's self-serving version in the immediate aftermath, unaware that Martin had been on the phone to his girlfriend.</devilsadvocate>

The "returning to his vehicle" line didn't add up, and neither does that.

 

[LTC8K6]

I can't tell if this is a serious post or mockery. Just in case it's serious... That's a quote from Jessie Jackson -- far too indirect of a source to be informative.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8146180&postcount=2351

 

[Checkmite]

Again, the girlfriends account showed up three weeks late to the game.
Zimmerman's account:
TM: Do you have a problem?
GZ: No
TM: You do now.(assault begins.) This was in the initial police report. Conveniently not release until this morning... a month later.

But the girlfriend's account at least is consistent with Zimmerman's police call in every point in which it can be. They both agree that Martin noticed Zimmerman watching him. They both agree that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to follow, and that Martin ran to get away and at some point briefly "lost" Zimmerman.

The only thing that makes little sense is Zimmerman's account of what happened after he got off the phone with dispatch. The last thing we can verify is that Zimmerman told the dispatcher he would NOT be meeting the police at his vehicle when they arrived. Yet if we're to believe him, after he hung up he not only immediately changed his mind and decided to walk back to his vehicle after all, but Martin who literally seconds earlier had been running to evade Zimmerman enough to lose sight of him, spontaneously decided to double back and jump Zimmerman from behind - and in a place that's further away from Zimmerman's vehicle than the furthest place at which it seems Martin could have been out of Zimmerman's sight.

On the other hand, for Martin's girlfriend's account to be accurate, all both of them had to do was keeping doing what they were already doing for just a minute or so longer.

I might add that if Martin's girlfriend was just making things up for Martin's benefit it seems like an odd choice for her to have Martin speak up first.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

<devilsadvocate>Zimmerman's self-serving version in the immediate aftermath, unaware that Martin had been on the phone to his girlfriend.</devilsadvocate>

I don't think this thread needs any devil's advocate for Martin's side of the case.

 

[Checkmite]

* Aside: in UK terminology, that would be "follow the round round to the left," rather than "turn left." Not sure if Zimmerman's choice of words in standard in the US.

In the US I believe "bear left" would be most common.

I think part of the reason for Zimmerman's confusing directions for the police was due to his struggling to think of the right way to describe that situation.

 

[LTC8K6]

Any of those is perfectly plausible, but none of them changes anything. No matter how fast he had to walk to catch up, what matters is that he did. He persisted on following Martin until he was close enough to talk to. Wildcat's objection to the word "chase" because he seems to think it doesn't count as chasing unless its a dead running pursuit seems gratuitously and pointlessly contrarian.

I would think that Martin approached Zimmerman from what I have read. Zimmerman was following Martin, but it was Martin who decided to close the distance and ask Zimmerman why he was following. It was Martin who initiated the personal contact between the two, imo.

Also, we can't assume Martin's path.

Zimmerman describes him as just "walking about", which would give Zimmerman more time and distance to encounter him and observe him.

 

[LTC8K6]

But the girlfriend's account at least is consistent with Zimmerman's police call in every point in which it can be. They both agree that Martin noticed Zimmerman watching him. They both agree that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to follow, and that Martin ran to get away and at some point briefly "lost" Zimmerman.

The only thing that makes little sense is Zimmerman's account of what happened after he got off the phone with dispatch. The last thing we can verify is that Zimmerman told the dispatcher he would NOT be meeting the police at his vehicle when they arrived. Yet if we're to believe him, after he hung up he not only immediately changed his mind and decided to walk back to his vehicle after all, but Martin who literally seconds earlier had been running to evade Zimmerman enough to lose sight of him, spontaneously decided to double back and jump Zimmerman from behind - and in a place that's further away from Zimmerman's vehicle than the furthest place at which it seems Martin could have been out of Zimmerman's sight.

On the other hand, for Martin's girlfriend's account to be accurate, all both of them had to do was keeping doing what they were already doing for just a minute or so longer.

I might add that if Martin's girlfriend was just making things up for Martin's benefit it seems like an odd choice for her to have Martin speak up first.

I think if you blend Zimmerman's account and the girlfriend's account, they basically mesh. Leaving out the girlfriend's interpretations of sounds.

When Martin says he isn't going to run, I think that's the point where he decides to confront Zimmerman.

I really can't see any evidence that Zimmerman wanted to arrest Martin or restrain Martin.

 

[Checkmite]

I think if you blend Zimmerman's account and the girlfriend's account, they basically mesh. Leaving out the girlfriend's interpretations of sounds.

Except for their accounts of the conversation which are completely different, and Trayvon telling his girlfriend that Zimmerman suddenly showed up behind him.

When Martin says he isn't going to run, I think that's the point where he decides to confront Zimmerman.

You're leaving out the context that Martin believes he's just "lost" Zimmerman. Besides, I don't recall Martin's girlfriend saying he said he wasn't going to run. That wouldn't make sense because he already had run by that point. I remember her contending that he he said he wasn't going to call the police.

I really can't see any evidence that Zimmerman wanted to arrest Martin or restrain Martin.

Neither do I; but I believe it's more likely that the girlfriend's account is much more likely, that Zimmerman closed the distance, not Martin.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Any of those is perfectly plausible, but none of them changes anything. No matter how fast he had to walk to catch up, what matters is that he did. He persisted on following Martin until he was close enough to talk to. Wildcat's objection to the word "chase" because he seems to think it doesn't count as chasing unless its a dead running pursuit seems gratuitously and pointlessly contrarian.

He persisted on following Martin until he was close enough to talk to ... either until he caught up to him, or Martin stopped and headed towards him ... or something.

Clearly Zimmerman was (overly) zealous, and followed Martin. How exactly they engaged at some point is still unknown, although the evidence is not completely inconsistent with the only witness account (GZ)

I do think chase implies more than follows, and that followed is a better word.

 

[Kestrel]

<devilsadvocate>Zimmerman's self-serving version in the immediate aftermath, unaware that Martin had been on the phone to his girlfriend.</devilsadvocate>

The "returning to his vehicle" line didn't add up, and neither does that.

Zimmermann could have been returning to his vehicle by a different route, continuing his search for Martin.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You're leaving out the context that Martin believes he's just "lost" Zimmerman. Besides, I don't recall Martin's girlfriend saying he said he wasn't going to run. That wouldn't make sense because he already had run by that point. I remember her contending that he he said he wasn't going to call the police.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T3HiPDEgcQL

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."
Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."

 

[Noztradamus]

Ok - here is my attempt at mapping out according to 911 call.

If there are glaring mistakes, it is not due to any agenda, just trying to visualize what happened.

Feel free to point out where I have gone wrong.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_500444f71cc7a02395.jpg[/qimg]

GZ says the police have to make a left turn on Twin Trees before they go past the mailboxes and see his truck. Which means the mail boxes aren't on the short vertical portion and his truck can't be seen from there ie not on the corner.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

GZ says the police have to make a left turn on Twin Trees before they go past the mailboxes and see his truck. Which means the mail boxes aren't on the short vertical portion and his truck can't be seen from there ie not on the corner.

Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...

I don't see a big discrepancy in the description, and I can't find any other mailboxes (ETA: or something that may be mailboxes). I am open to suggestions.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."[/I]

See, this is the kind of biased 'evidence' I object to.

It never occurs to her that Trayvon may have dropped the head set because he was the one pushing. It doesn't occur to her because she's his girlfriend and has a horse in the race.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T3HiPDEgcQL

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."
Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."

"Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin."

That part is made up, imo.

I think it's much more likely that Martin went to see who was following him.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

The media is also using some (pardon the pun) loaded words in its coverage. The phrase 'gunned down' is used a lot, instead of simply 'shot'. The kid's age and ethnicity is always brought up.

Then you have the ABC anchor in that last link who looks like she's trying to swallow poison when she talks about Zimmerman the 'neighborhood watchdog.'

Then there is the calculated use of old photos of the dead kid to accentuate his youth and innocence.

Again, I do not know if Zimmerman was a crackpot who killed an innocent kid for no reason or not, but I know a witch hunt when I see one.

 

[Noztradamus]

Again, the girlfriends account showed up three weeks late to the game.
Zimmerman's account:
TM: Do you have a problem?
GZ: No
TM: You do now.(assault begins.) This was in the initial police report. Conveniently not release until this morning... a month later.

Well that is the only difference in the reported verbal interaction. They otherwise agree on "Why are you following?" "What are you doing"

But the girl knows GZ will have made a statement, which will restrain any impluse of hers to get creative about the conversation.

But Martin was using a phone headset with his hood up. Was GZ even aware Martin's phone was live and there was a witness on the other end? If he portrays Martin as the aggressor, who's to know?