Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[triforcharity]

Florida law:

(5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.—Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person.

The CCL statutes do not grant an exception to this. If you're in a vehicle, your gun has to be somewhere not readily accessible for immediate use.

If Z was obeying the law, his gun could not have been in his waistband or anywhere else at hand while he was in the vehicle. Meaning he didn't just get out to chase Martin and his gun happened to be in his waistband because it was always there. Z had to get out and consciously retrieve his gun to arm himself before running after Trayvon.

...otherwise he had to have been carrying his gun in the vehicle in a readily accessible manner which is illegal.

Except for the person who has a valid CCW permit.

 

[Noztradamus]

That depends on how it was said. Say for instance (and this is me making it up for argument's sake) Martin approached Zimmerman from behind and asked in a confrontational tone, "why are you following me?" Then that wouldn't be inconsistant with being attacked from behind. Mind you, the conversation was not in the initial report. The conversation didn't show up until three weeks later when the girlfriend finally decided to come forward. That whole situation is suspect, anyway, IMHO.

Well the intial report was that Zimmerman was attacked by surprise. Zimerman has now confirmed that an intial vocal exchange took place.

That whole situation is suspect, anyway, IMHO

 

[crimresearch]

Well the intial report was that Zimmerman was attacked by surprise. Zimerman has now confirmed that an intial vocal exchange took place.

That whole situation is suspect, anyway, IMHO

I would hope (and suspect) that FDLE is starting with incontrovertible facts, like the death of the victim, and working logically from there. The lawyers can try to discredit witnesses, etc. in court.

 

[LTC8K6]

"Zimmerman told police he had killed him. Shot him in the back of the head in self-defense."

Well, that's it then. In the back of the head. That couldn't be self defense.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...e-convenience-store+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[Giz]

Okay, that "Next TAM" bit was too far, but I can't believe I donate to this board...

As long as you don't believe that this board encourages critical thinking then there's no problem...

 

[tyr_13]

"Zimmerman told police he had killed him. Shot him in the back of the head in self-defense."

Well, that's it then. In the back of the head. That couldn't be self defense.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...e-convenience-store+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

From that same article,

His remark conflicts with previously published information. According to sources close to the investigation, the teen-ager was shot once in the chest.

Jesse Jackson said something hyperbolic? No...

 

[Freddy]

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/the-daily-caller-obtains-trayvon-martins-tweets/

Sounds like a possibility to me. Maybe I'm just too old?

I used to teach in a public middle school in TX, and this sort of language was completely typical of the male and female students, including both the trouble makers and the generally well-behaved kids who were most certainly not in gangs. I imagine it's typical of urban high school students as well. I don't regard it as probative of whether Martin was in a gang.

 

[triforcharity]

Nope. Look at what I said again.

Once jump on top of the guy and keep beating him, you're no longer "fighting back"; you're the aggressor. And yes, at that point the guy can shoot you to defend himself.

This is a difficult scenario, because there are two different laws that would cover this.

"776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force."

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.041.html



Here's the other.
"
776.013 (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity (In this case, I would have been engaged in unlawful activity) and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

You COULD be right. But, if I started the fight, we both escalated to a more violent fight mutually, I couldn't claim self defense. If I continued to fight you, and never stepped back and "Gave up" you have every right to shoot me dead.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

As long as you don't believe that this board encourages critical thinking then there's no problem...

Not strictly true, there IS plenty of critical thinking here. It's just that whenever a thread involves sex, race or political leaning the same dozen posters set up shop and shout down dissenting views.

To my mind you should be able to come here and discuss ANYTHING, from any side, as a purely philosophical exercise. "Are black people discriminated against with prison sentencing, or do they perform a disproportionate amount of crimes?" "Is being homosexual a lifestyle, or a hormonal birth defect?" "Did the Nazi's have any positive points?"

Shocking, thought provoking, belief challenging, adult discussions. Which we should be able to handle. But no, anything hot button and the lines are instantly drawn and the arguments from authority and appeals to emotion start flying. Then it's 50+ pages of the same 5 people arguing back and forth till it's time to move on to a new outrage.

Sorry for the OT mini-rant, I'm just a little down on the largely wasted potential of this site.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Well another possibility is that while going back to his truck, Martin was doubling back to get to the house he was staying at. They can't see each other until the last second. When they do see each other they are closer now & Zimmerman thinks Martin doubled back to confront him. Martin asks why Zimmerman was following him & Zimmerman reaches for his phone to call police. Martin reacts to Zimmerman reaching & decks him. Martin sees the gun & now believes he's fighting for his life so he piles on & tries to get the gun. Zimmerman now fears for his life & manages to draw & fire.

This makes more sense to me than most scenarios I've seen proposed so far.

I only know what I read in the papers, and that leaves me utterly confused.



In the county where my brother in law is a cop, they just put a guy in jail for life, no parole, for putting bullets into the heads of three young ladies. I note the lack of national outrage for that case. This happened recently, and came up in conversation last year when I was in town for a family funeral.

I note the lack of national outrage.

http://www.caller.com/news/2012/mar/22/corpus-christi-man-pleads-guilty-to-killing-gets/

RIP, ladies. For all of your strengths and your weaknesses, what ever future you had ended when you ran into the wrong jerkoff on the wrong night.

The rest of America, and the media, doesn't give a flying crap about you.

In a place where the national spotlight does not shine, some mothers are still weeping.

 

[LTC8K6]

Good gravy! Even sarcasm is going unnoticed...

Beam me up Scotty!

(Yes, I know it was never said.)

 

[WildCat]

"Zimmerman told police he had killed him. Shot him in the back of the head in self-defense."

Well, that's it then. In the back of the head. That couldn't be self defense.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...e-convenience-store+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Wow, Jesse Jackson has really gone off the rails here. You'd think he'd have learned a thing or 2 after the Duke lacrosse fiasco.

Who the hell told him that crap?

 

[WildCat]

I used to teach in a public middle school in TX, and this sort of language was completely typical of the male and female students, including both the trouble makers and the generally well-behaved kids who were most certainly not in gangs. I imagine it's typical of urban high school students as well. I don't regard it as probative of whether Martin was in a gang.

I scrolled through a whole bunch of those tweets, and I didn't see anything gang related in them. I do feel a lot dumber after reading them though.

 

[Kestrel]

Does any of that ultimately have a bearing on the confrontation/shooting though ?

I understand there are some questions on specific details leading up to the confrontation, such as where specifically GZ parked, did he run, etc.

HOW do those details change the outcome ?

The details show Zimmerman's state of mind. Even after being told not to go after the suspect, he persisted. He was going to get this guy on his own and now wait for the cops.

So did he try to arrest Martin on his own? Or did he pull his gun out while prowling the back path? In either case, Zimmerman would be far outside the law. .

Now try to imagine what this looks like from Martin's perspective. He hasn't done anything and some creepy guy is hunting him down.

 

[crimresearch]

This is a difficult scenario, because there are two different laws that would cover this.

"776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force."

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.041.html



Here's the other.
"
776.013 (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity (In this case, I would have been engaged in unlawful activity) and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

You COULD be right. But, if I started the fight, we both escalated to a more violent fight mutually, I couldn't claim self defense. If I continued to fight you, and never stepped back and "Gave up" you have every right to shoot me dead.

Force with force refers to proportionate force. I doubt if that's what Zimmerman will claim.

The first cite 776.041 - 2(a) covers the belief in death or great bodily harm component, which is much more likely to be invoked.

 

[Giz]

Sorry for the OT mini-rant, I'm just a little down on the largely wasted potential of this site.

I hear ya. When I was younger and first heard of this site I didn't bother looking in for quite a while as I - in my naivete - figured that a bunch of smart skeptics would very boringly agree on too many issues.

Now I know better and while less bored I am far more pessimistic about the ability of humans to reason logically* - thanks JREF!




* Now, rationalizing their biases in a logical sounding way... THAT we have in abundance!

 

[triforcharity]

According to his attorney, he did go to the hospital, the next day. You also have to remember that adrenaline is a natural pain killer. The real pain might not have set in until hours later. It's very typical for people to deny medical treatment, on the spot but once the adrenaline wears off and the pain sets in, they end up going, anyway.

This is true. But, it has nothing to do with pain. It has everything to do with a large gash in your head, and possibly other injuries unknown at the time.

It just seems odd.

But, I wasn't there, so maybe there is something I don't know.

 

[Giz]

Wow, Jesse Jackson has really gone off the rails here. You'd think he'd have learned a thing or 2 after the Duke lacrosse fiasco.

Who the hell told him that crap?

You don't think that he could have made it up himself?

 

[triforcharity]

Gunshots don't blow people off their feet anywhere except in Hollywood movies. Shoot a 100lb deer with a .270 Win. (an extremely popular deer round) that has over 2,000 ft.-lbs. of energy and it doesn't knock the deer off its hooves. I don't know where you get this "knock you off your feet" stuff except from watching bad action movies?

Personal experience. Keep going, it's funny watching you try to tell me something is wrong, that I have personally seen, first hand, with my own two eyes.

Keep going.....

 

[WildCat]

The details show Zimmerman's state of mind. Even after being told not to go after the suspect, he persisted. He was going to get this guy on his own and now wait for the cops.

So did he try to arrest Martin on his own? Or did he pull his gun out while prowling the back path? In either case, Zimmerman would be far outside the law. .

Do you have evidence for any of that Kestrel?

There's more baseless speculation in this thread by so-called skeptics than in the conspiracy theories section.