Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

Are you claiming that the person on the phone was not a police officer?

From the 911 call:

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Z: Yeah
Dispatcher: OK, we don't need you to do that.

More importantly: If you are going to try and say that was a "suggestion" and not an "order", I suggest you listen to the tape and listen closely to the dispatchers voice when he says "we don't need you to do that".

A potential jury will hear how the dispatcher says it.

I understand you are going under some strict definition of "a police order"? There was definitely a very serious police suggestion to not follow.

I'm going with what the police themselves have said:

If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this investigation?
Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you following him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do that”. The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow. Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and as returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

So you add no convictions to make your claim of no criminal record more solid?? Are arrests for "tussling" with LEOs not part of a criminal record.



Sounds like a plea deal to me.

Either way, you cannot deny that he got into a fight one or more police officers.

So instead of "the only one of the two with a criminal record" we can say "the only one of the two that had ever been arrested" or "the only one of the two that had previously assaulted a police officer".

There was no fight with officers. He pushed one officer when he and some friends got in a altercation in a bar. The charges were dismissed.

 

[WildCat]

I take it you are using some strict definition of point blank that 99% of the public would disagree with?

Ask a thousand people this question: "If someone is shot at point blank range, about how far away would you say they are from the shooter".

My guess would be that the average answer would be 3 or 4 feet. Even including the people that answer knowing about the strict definition and the people that say higher thinking it is a trick question.

The definition of "point blank" is whatever range the sights are adjusted for, so no elevation adjustments are needed when aiming at a target. That people misunderstand the term is not my problem.

 

[WildCat]

We have clear evidence that Zimmerman didn't want him to "get away," which is why he was stalking him. Whether he formally attempted a citizen's arrest or not is really neither here nor there.

It actually is here and there. If Zimmerman did actually attempt to detain Martin he's guilty of at least manslaughter. If Martin took offense at being followed and attacked Zimmerman, then self defense may apply.

This is the crux of the case!

The results of the autopsy and forensic exam of the crime scene and clothing may shed more light on this important issue. Right now all we have is speculation.

 

[WildCat]

Weak nonsense of a high order.

What definition of "vigilante" are you using? Certainly not the Webster definition.

Your use of that word requires assumptions that are not in evidence.

 

[WildCat]

And there are at least 2 witnesses who were looking out windows less than 40 feet from (judging from the pictures showing the sidewalk and the houses (condos?) on each side facing the walk) the incident that say otherwise.

Cite?

And was this before, or after the fatal gunshot?

 

[ehcks]

"Definition of VIGILANTE
: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice"

Volunteer committee? Neighborhood watch member. Check
Suppress and punish crime? Supressing crime is the entire point of neighborhood watches. Check
As when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate? He said so on the 911 call. Check

 

[WildCat]

"The always get away" "Are you following him?" "Yeah"

Now if you want to say it is not yet proven, that's fine. But claiming "no evidence" is hypocritical.

It's not uncommon at all for people to follow suspicious persons after they call the police, so they can point them out to them when police arrive. It happens all the time when people report hit-and-run or drunk drivers, for example.

Following someone is not evidence of intent to detain, it's merely evidence of intent to keep them in sight.

 

[WildCat]

I have, on occasion, spoken to people who had a mobile phone in one hand and nothing in the other who were chasing, either on foot or in a vehicle, armed robbers. In each case the caller saw that the subject had a gun and had just used it in a violent crime and they followed anyway, despite anything I said.

Do you think those people intended to detain the suspect, or just keep them in sight so they don't get away?

 

[varwoche]

What definition of "vigilante" are you using? Certainly not the Webster definition.

Your use of that word requires assumptions that are not in evidence.

Your incorrectness is matched by your apparent desperation to defend the actions of this vigilante.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The definition of "point blank" is whatever range the sights are adjusted for, so no elevation adjustments are needed when aiming at a target. That people misunderstand the term is not my problem.

You are being overly pedantic in an effort to say 'I'm right'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_blank

In external ballistics, point-blank range is the distance between a firearm and a target of a given size such that the bullet in flight is expected to strike the target without adjusting the elevation of the firearm

So yes, what you said. BUT,

In forensics and popular usage, point-blank range has come to mean extremely close range (i.e., target within about a meter (3 ft) of the muzzle at moment of discharge but not close enough to be an actual contact shot)

If you insist on you using a highly technical definition that's obviously not the best definition in the context of the discussion, people misunderstanding may not be your problem, but it is your fault.

 

[WildCat]

Do you have any evidence Trayvon looked like a gang member?

I never made any such claim.

But many people describe him as a "little boy", including witness Cutcher, which is certainly not the case. By published accounts he was either 6'3" (news reports) or 6'0" (according to the partial police report) and anywhere from 140 - 160lbs. It's relevant because a lot of people find it inconceivable that a "little boy" like Martin would attack the 5'9" 240lb Zimmerman first, but he wasn't the "little boy" many of the published pictures depict and people assume him to have been.

 

[WildCat]

http://www.mojoimage.com/free-image-hosting-10/7901retreatmap2.jpg

Purple Arrow - Main Entrance
Dark Blue Oval - Clubhouse (initial area of Trayvon in 911 call)
Orange X - 2831 Retreat view circle address
Yellow X - approximate location of body
Light blue X - Approx loc where father was living
Red arrow - Back entrance

(2831 is the address on the police report so that's the significance of that place)

There is no reasonable explanation for the location of Trayvon's body except that Zimmerman not only attempted to detain him, but actually did cut off his path home.

Where did you get this information from? The released police report I saw had the addresses redacted.

 

[WildCat]

"Definition of VIGILANTE
: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice"

Volunteer committee? Neighborhood watch member. Check
Suppress and punish crime? Supressing crime is the entire point of neighborhood watches. Check
As when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate? He said so on the 911 call. Check

You have evidence that Zimmerman intended to punish anyone? That's crucial to the definition, otherwise anyone who installs a security camera or locks their doors is a "vigilante".

 

[WildCat]

Your incorrectness is matched by your apparent desperation to defend the actions of this vigilante.

There you go again! What definition are you using varwoche?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

...

The more likely case here is that Fox News is willing to be that reckless with the facts all in the name of promoting the causes of the extreme right wing gun fanatics. Words fail me and reckless is an understatement.

And there are at least 2 witnesses who were looking out windows less than 40 feet from (judging from the pictures showing the sidewalk and the houses (condos?) on each side facing the walk) the incident that say otherwise.

You aren't being very skeptical - based on your initial post bashing the idea of Martin beating up Zimmerman despite being shown the evidence it seems like Fox was referencing.

Why don't you share your thoughts on:

1-the reports that Martin was beating Zimmerman, and Zimmerman yelled for help
2- the 911 call saying the guy with the white shirt was on top
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/videogallery/68870683/News/911-call-Guy-on-top-wearing-white
"I looked out my window and there was a guy on top with a white tshirt on top of the other person"
3- Martins father saying that was not him yelling
http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlando...peak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html

So here are the call logs. Which 2 say otherwise, please ???
OR do you have a link to witnesses statements???

ETA: Sorry - I figured out you must mean mary cutcher and her roomate on anderson cooper.


911 CALL LOG

Call 2:
Male witness reported screaming and gunshot. He states that a man had been screaming and now two people with flashlights (Ofc. Ricardo Ayala, Ofc. Timothy Smith ) are walking around. Male said incident was occuring in his back yard.

Call 3:
Female witness reported screaming. Screaming can be heard in background. Male companion (Jeremy) can be heard in background also. Gunshot goes off 00:45 seconds into recording. Screaming stops after gunshot. Female states incident is occuring right outside (behind) her house.

Call 4:
Female witness reported screaming and gunshot right outside her house. Female reports that the police have arrived while she is on the phone (Ofc. Timothy Smith). The officer arrives in front of her house and she is giving the operator instructions to direct him to the back of her home. This appears to be the 2821 Retreat View Circle address. This witness also describes the victim as wearing a white t-shirt and that the victim was on top.

Call 5:
Female witness reported "screaming for help" and a gunshot two doors down. She stated that a man is walking around with a flashlight (Ofc. Timothy Smith).

Call 6:
Female witness reports that she thinks someone has been shot. She tells the dispatch that a gun just went off and "they" said call 911 (most likely she is referring to Mary Cutcher and Selma Mora Lamilla-see below). She later stated that there are people in the backyard with flashlights (Ofc. Timothy Smith and Ofc. Ofc. Ricardo Ayala).

Call 7:
Female witness reports hearing screaming and then a bang. She also reports seeing people with flashlights (Ofc. Timothy Smith and Ofc. Ofc. Ricardo Ayala). She immediately becomes highly distressed by the event. She stayed on the phone long enough to see other officers arrive ( Sgt. Raimondo, Sgt. S. McCoy, Ofc. Mead, Ofc. Wagner, Ofc. Robertson, Lt. Taylor). Ultimately she becames so distraught that it appeared dispatch eventually referred her for counseling.

Call 8:
Female witness reports that her brother informed her that someone was shot. She says that he ran inside and she called. Dispatch then asks to speak with the brother. The boy tells dispatch that he was walking his dog and was going to intervene but his dog got off his leash. The boy went after his dog and then the he heard the shot. (This witness is 13 year old Austin McLendon who was walking his dog-see below)

 

[WildCat]

So yes, what you said. BUT,

In forensics and popular usage, point-blank range has come to mean extremely close range (i.e., target within about a meter (3 ft) of the muzzle at moment of discharge but not close enough to be an actual contact shot)

If you insist on you using a highly technical definition that's obviously not the best definition in the context of the discussion, people misunderstanding may not be your problem, but it is your fault.

I know, I'm being pedantic.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The picture of Trayvon in the football picture calls him a junior in high school. He was 17 when killed. That pretty much suggests that picture is a current one and that is what he looked like. Trying to claim these images are a false representation of him are suspect.

Again, in light of the evidence that he stopped playing football at 14 - doesn't that seem that showing the football picture of him is a false representation ?

His parents have no more recent pictures in the last 3 years suitable for television , or do the pictures simply not convey the story/image they want to convey ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I know, I'm being pedantic.

Since you are already on the unpopular side of the debate, being pedantic doesn't help

ETA: on second thought guess it's not overly pedantic, just pedantic

 

[crimresearch]

You know I'm thinking that maybe we should split the discussion about the "Stand Your Ground" law off to another thread. And just leave this one to discuss the particulars of this case.

Maybe start with this?

A lawyer for the man at the center of the Trayvon Martin death investigation said Florida's "stand your ground" law doesn't apply to the shooting that killed the unarmed teen.

"In my legal opinion, that's not really applicable to this case. The statute on 'stand your ground' is primarily when you're in your house," said Craig Sonner, attorney for George Zimmerman.

"This is self-defense, and that's been around for forever -- that you have a right to defend yourself. So the next issue (that) is going to come up is, was he justified in using the amount of force he did?"

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?eref=rss_us

 

[fuelair]

Stand your ground, whatever that lawyer says, was/is meant to apply outside the home/your property. The law already allowed for that for all practical purposes (wherein practical means you are not required to try to run away so the attacker has a clear shot at your back) the new law just expanded where it applied to places external to your house and property.

Regardless of that, the fun part is that thanks to Rev. Al (and others) who cannot learn to keep his mouth shut and stay out of legal things like this it is now impossible for Zimmerman to get a trial that can get jurors who have not firmly made up their minds already on guilt or innocence. Zimmerman will pretty certainly be arrested and probably be tried but any lawyer worth half a cent (most of them) will almost certainly get him off on appeal.