Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[leftysergeant]

There is absolutely no evidence thus far that Zimmerman intended to chase down Martin and detain him.

Cow cookies. He expressed some displeasure over the fact that so many suspects got away while he was on the phone to the police.

He changed the rendevous point with the police to continue trying to interdict Martin. He succeded.

 

[quadraginta]

I also await the pics with baited breath, but I don't think WC made that particular claim.

A good mouthwash can fix that.



-----------------------------------------------------

Cruel Clever Cat: (Geoffrey Taylor)

Sally, having swallowed cheese,
Directs down holes the scented breeze,
Enticing thus with baited breath
Nice mice to an untimely death.

 

[This is The End]

You're defining "initiating" as either who spoke first or who touched the other first.

I would define initiating in this case as coming up to Trayvon. It's pretty reasonable for Trayvon to have feared Zimmerman when Zimmerman followed T. It's reasonable to then say the initiation was when Zimmerman got close enough to Trayvon to confirm Z was indeed following T.

"Why are you following me?" is a response to Zimmerman coming close enough to worry Trayvon. It's not the initiation of the confrontation.

I agree. Initiating is not who spoke or who talked first, but who came up to whom first.

If there are only 2 people outside, and one of them starts to follow the other, that is initiating contact. In my eyes, and potentially in the eyes of a potential juror. Unless they are given a strict definition to follow.

 

[This is The End]

"Menacing" is your speculation, and there was no order by police to desist.

Fact 1: Armed vigilante follows innocent youth (against police instruction)

This part is not factual.

There was no police order not to follow

<snip>

Are you claiming that the person on the phone was not a police officer?

From the 911 call:

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Z: Yeah
Dispatcher: OK, we don't need you to do that.

More importantly: If you are going to try and say that was a "suggestion" and not an "order", I suggest you listen to the tape and listen closely to the dispatchers voice when he says "we don't need you to do that".

A potential jury will hear how the dispatcher says it.

I understand you are going under some strict definition of "a police order"? There was definitely a very serious police suggestion to not follow.

Zimmerman did not have a criminal record.

No convictions, no criminal record.

So you add no convictions to make your claim of no criminal record more solid?? Are arrests for "tussling" with LEOs not part of a criminal record.

arrested after a tussle with law enforcement outside of a bar near the University of Central Florida. It was a first offense, and Zimmerman got off with a pretrial diversion program.

Sounds like a plea deal to me.

Either way, you cannot deny that he got into a fight one or more police officers.

So instead of "the only one of the two with a criminal record" we can say "the only one of the two that had ever been arrested" or "the only one of the two that had previously assaulted a police officer".

In summary:

FACT: The shooter had been previously arrested for assaulting a police officer. The assault was not disputed in the resulting case.

FACT: Z was given a very serious suggestion to not continue following M by a police dispatcher.

 

[This is The End]

It actually depends on how your sights are adjusted. Point blank can be 10 yards, it can be 200 yards.

I take it you are using some strict definition of point blank that 99% of the public would disagree with?

Ask a thousand people this question: "If someone is shot at point blank range, about how far away would you say they are from the shooter".

My guess would be that the average answer would be 3 or 4 feet. Even including the people that answer knowing about the strict definition and the people that say higher thinking it is a trick question.

 

[anglolawyer]

"Gated community" is most likely something of a misnomer. There are neighborhoods in that part of Florida where you would need a pass to open a barrier to drive in. My girlfriend's father lives in one near Orlando, and the last time I was there the guard waved us through without checking for ID (apparently a white couple in their late 30s without hoodies doesn't arouse much suspicion).

In any case, the sidewalks are open and I'm pretty sure it's public property. I don't think anyone's accused Trayvon of trespassing or suggested he was not authorized to be where he was.

Thanks. It makes a difference that he was not in a place he was not supposed to be. So this is a young man going about his business who gets into a confrontation with a 'captain' in the neighbourhood watch who has helpfully recorded his prejudices in a call to the police and neglected an instruction not to follow (and implicitly not to engage with) the victim. How is this guy not in jail? What's his story? That he got out of his car, politely enquired whether he could be of assistance and got viciously assaulted for his trouble? That's about the only tale he could tell. Much more likely, this prejudiced busybody confronted the youth in a hostile manner, precipitating some form of affray. That doesn't sound like self-defence to me, even if he was getting the worse of it.

 

[Information Analyst]

Facts not known to Zimmerman.

LTC8K6 gave examples of "obvious" crimes like a drunk getting into a car, or a bank robbery in progress. The point is that Martin was not doing anything other than being in a place Zimmerman thought he shouldn't be, even though he was there legitimately.

 

[Information Analyst]

You have evidence that Zimmerman attempted a citizen's arrest of Martin?

We have clear evidence that Zimmerman didn't want him to "get away," which is why he was stalking him. Whether he formally attempted a citizen's arrest or not is really neither here nor there.

 

[Information Analyst]

eta: the Boston Herald story makes no sense, an autoloading weapon with a round in the chamber and a full magazine will load a round from the magazine once fired. It's impossible to fire it and still have a full magazine.

I would imagine that they're simply failed to adequately explain the state the weapon was in when examined, and what it must have been before the shooting. Since the magazine capacity of the PF-9 is seven, presumably it had one round in the chamber and six in the magazine when examined, meaning that before firing it must have had one in the chamber and seven in the magazine.

 

[Information Analyst]

Why would they keep posting a 3 or 4 year old picture of the victim? They choose not to show a more recent pic of the 17 year old with gold teeth and gang signage.

I can only find one picture of Martin with gold teeth*, but no "gang signage," unless you mean the dart board behind him. Then again, if "gang signage" is a crime, better pursue and lock up this lot!

* Then again, he played that version of Rugby between two teams of motorcylce messagers American football, so I guess he may have lost a tooth or two.

 

[leftysergeant]

I can only find one picture of Martin with gold teeth*, but no "gang signage," unless you mean the dart board behind him.

Dude! No! The hoodie, damn it. He was wearing a hoody, so he must be...

Erm...

I wear a hoody...

Now you made my head hurt...

 

[Information Analyst]

Terrifying. I can see now why Zimmerman would have been concerned about this kid casually strolling through his neighborhood.

Maybe Zimmerman was afraid Martin would bit him....

 

[Information Analyst]

I have to say that there's a certain irony that in between various people swapping tips on what firearms they carry - presumably because they live in such a scary/dangerous place - others/the same are also suggesting that an innocent 17 year old going about his lawful business isn't allowed to be concerned/afraid of an older and much larger adult first following, and then actively chasing after him, when the kid tries running away....

 

[leftysergeant]

I have to say that there's a certain irony that in between various people swapping tips on what firearms they carry - presumably because they live in such a scary/dangerous place - others/the same are also suggesting that an innocent 17 year old going about his lawful business isn't allowed to be concerned/afraid of an older and much larger adult first following, and then actively chasing after him, when the kid tries running away....

People like Zimmerman are part of the reason I pack.

 

[Information Analyst]

People like Zimmerman are part of the reason I pack.

Now that I can understand!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Are you claiming that the person on the phone was not a police officer?

From the 911 call:

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Z: Yeah
Dispatcher: OK, we don't need you to do that.

More importantly: If you are going to try and say that was a "suggestion" and not an "order", I suggest you listen to the tape and listen closely to the dispatchers voice when he says "we don't need you to do that".

I think the SPD already addressed this adequately.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this investigation? Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you following him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do that”. The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I agree. Initiating is not who spoke or who talked first, but who came up to whom first.

If there are only 2 people outside, and one of them starts to follow the other, that is initiating contact. In my eyes, and potentially in the eyes of a potential juror. Unless they are given a strict definition to follow.

Zimmerman may be said to have initiated the sequence of events, but he didn't (by all accounts) speak to or touch Martin first.

IOW, Zimmerman didn't initiate contact by any reasonable definition of that phrase, in my opinion.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

OK, putting confirmation bias aside.... can't.. it's Fox News.

So there's a pro-gun ownership piece on Fox New right now and some guy is claiming there were witnesses that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman whaling away at him. OMFSM! Are they serious? The racist faction of the right wing extreme is going to side with Zimmerman here and claim that a teenager weighing 80 pounds less than Zimmerman who was armed got the better of Zimmerman in a fight?

I'm blown away by this. The premise would have to be that the rest of the news media is ignoring these "witnesses". Of course no one on Fox challenged the pro-gun guy to as how he knew this and why these witnesses were not giving their stories in interviews, on Fox or elsewhere. There were no questions asked why these witnesses' accounts were not in the police report.

Fox News disregards the damage they might be doing to Trayvon's family with this kind of propaganda. They disregard the consequences.

I have not disregarded the comments in this thread, especially WildCat's caution to look for the evidence not the news reports. If it turns out there are these "4-5 witnesses" claimed by the Fox News interviewee it will be an interesting twist in the case. But it is highly unlikely given no evidence of said witnesses and given the unlikely scenario that Trayvon could have overpowered Zimmerman.
The more likely case here is that Fox News is willing to be that reckless with the facts all in the name of promoting the causes of the extreme right wing gun fanatics. Words fail me and reckless is an understatement.

You've seen the news interview of a witness that claims Martin was on top and Zimmerman was yelling for help. There is at least one 911 call saying the 'guy with the white shirt' was on top.

We haven't seen an entire police report, so your claim of what is and what isn't in the report seems premature.

Are you ready to admit there might be 'an interesting twist in the case' and your confirmation bias ?

 

[Dancing David]

This gated community, was Trayvon allowed to be there? Had he climbed over a wall or something?

Yes, no

 

[Dancing David]

He was staying at his dads house, so yeah. A question though; How does it work with these gated communities? Aren't strangers allowed to drive on the roads there, unless they are privately owned ofc?

Depends if the gate is down or not, and if the security is there to operate the gate. The ones around here are private roads.