Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Dancing David]

Maybe the police did do their job properly:







http://www.wftv.com/news/news/trayvon-martin-case-sources-tell-wftv-police-wante/nLbjr/

That makes sense, again the police often do not announce their thoughts, they just pass it on.

 

[Dancing David]

Yes. The blowback from a contact range 9mm wound would leave the shooter covered in a spray of particulate matter, not necessarily actually soaked in a layer of liquid..

Droplets should have been apparent to any trained person looking for them.

Which is why I would have thought they would have removed the clothing for evidence. Especially since that could exonerate the shooter.

 

[triforcharity]

That makes sense, again the police often do not announce their thoughts, they just pass it on.

Well, the problem that I have, is not the police have two different stories.

1- As of March 12th, there was no evidence to dispute Zimmerman's claim of self defense.

2-Now there is evidence that what he claimed was not supported by the facts, since now it's coming to light that indeed they had in their information packet, they suggested a charge of manslaughter.

So, which is it? Why can't we, as concerned citizens, get a straight answer?

 

[Ian]

Quote from OnlyTellsTruths:

Are you claiming that the person on the phone was not a police officer?

From the 911 call:

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Z: Yeah
Dispatcher: OK, we don't need you to do that.

More importantly: If you are going to try and say that was a "suggestion" and not an "order", I suggest you listen to the tape and listen closely to the dispatchers voice when he says "we don't need you to do that".

A potential jury will hear how the dispatcher says it.

I understand you are going under some strict definition of "a police order"? There was definitely a very serious police suggestion to not follow.

It is not uncommon for people who work in law enforcement dispatch to not be "sworn" officers. I wasn't a sworn officer when I worked answering 911 calls. I will say that I had to advise many people to not follow a subject or to stop following them. What matters is getting someone to stop engaging in a potentially dangerous act; whether getting a caller to do so is by order or otherwise is far less important.

 

[varwoche]

You keep using that word, I don't think you know what it means.

Weak nonsense of a high order.

 

[Bikewer]

Sounds to me like Zimmerman was what we call a "police character" or a "wannabe". These are people desparate to be associated with law enforcement, but who don't qualify for one reason for another.
They become neighborhood-watch types, work for the "auxilliary", or just make pests of them with incessant calls to the police. This guy evidently did several.

Police departments vary wildly as to who they hire to do what. When I started, "communications" personnel were all commissioned officers. Often, they were temporarily "off the street" due to injuries or whatever, but there were many who just enjoyed the job and were good at it.
Now, it's fairly common to have civilians working "the desk", with perhaps a police officer or sergeant supervising to field the constant flow of legal questions.
( I have intended to write a book about my experiences working "the desk"....I have stories..)
Dispatchers, the guys who actually work the radio, are almost always civilian. It's a dreadful job, frankly. Highly stressful and with a load of responsibility. Those that are good at it are worth their weight in gold. Those who are not are a danger to everyone and far too often get retained anyway as it's so hard to find people to fill these typically-underpaid positons.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Zimmerman may be said to have initiated the sequence of events, but he didn't (by all accounts) speak to or touch Martin first.

IOW, Zimmerman didn't initiate contact by any reasonable definition of that phrase, in my opinion.

By that 'reasonable' definition, if you scream when a threatening man comes up behind you on a dark street, you initiated the encounter. I don't think anyone would consider that as reasonable as you do.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You've seen the news interview of a witness that claims Martin was on top and Zimmerman was yelling for help. There is at least one 911 call saying the 'guy with the white shirt' was on top.

We haven't seen an entire police report, so your claim of what is and what isn't in the report seems premature.

Are you ready to admit there might be 'an interesting twist in the case' and your confirmation bias ?

And there are at least 2 witnesses who were looking out windows less than 40 feet from (judging from the pictures showing the sidewalk and the houses (condos?) on each side facing the walk) the incident that say otherwise.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Which is why I would have thought they would have removed the clothing for evidence. Especially since that could exonerate the shooter.

I've read an account now that says the police have the gun (contrary to a lot of reports that Z. left with the gun) and the police retrieved the shirt from his house. I don't know if the police kept the gun at the time or retrieved it later when they took the shirt. And I don't recall if the report said the police had all Z's clothes from the event or just the shirt, but my guess is they took more than the shirt.

A lot of reports also claim Z was allowed to leave the scene but other reports say he was taken to the station to be interviewed.

While I don't think the police handled this as well as they could have (especially their failure to find Trayvon's next of kin for 3 days), the police probably did a better job than it appears in the initial news accounts.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, the problem that I have, is not the police have two different stories.

1- As of March 12th, there was no evidence to dispute Zimmerman's claim of self defense.

2-Now there is evidence that what he claimed was not supported by the facts, since now it's coming to light that indeed they had in their information packet, they suggested a charge of manslaughter.

So, which is it? Why can't we, as concerned citizens, get a straight answer?

Besides the 911 calls and conflicting claims about witness statements, is there other evidence contradicting Z's claims?

 

[Dancing David]

Well, the problem that I have, is not the police have two different stories.

1- As of March 12th, there was no evidence to dispute Zimmerman's claim of self defense.

2-Now there is evidence that what he claimed was not supported by the facts, since now it's coming to light that indeed they had in their information packet, they suggested a charge of manslaughter.

So, which is it? Why can't we, as concerned citizens, get a straight answer?

Not my call.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Sounds to me like Zimmerman was what we call a "police character" or a "wannabe". These are people desparate to be associated with law enforcement, but who don't qualify for one reason for another.
They become neighborhood-watch types, work for the "auxilliary", or just make pests of them with incessant calls to the police. This guy evidently did several.....

Münchausen syndrome with law enforcement attention being the goal rather than attention by medical people. This is interesting. Arsonists occasionally work as volunteer firefighters and set the fires so they can then be the hero calling in the fire or fighting it or whatever. In Münchausen syndrome a person makes themself ill or injures their children because the person craves the attention. We don't usually say a Münchausen's sufferer is a doctor or nurse wannabe, rather they want to be the center of attention in a specific setting.

I wonder how much psychiatric cross-over there is here that we in the medical community have not formally recognized was a similar mental mechanism going on?

 

[tyr_13]

What about the "7-9" year-old boy he called in?

I don't know. Was the child unsupervised or appear lost? Not that calling 911 is the reasonable course of action there, but it also isn't inherent in a hate for black people.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I asked you what evidence there is that Zimmerman intended to detain Martin.

"The always get away" "Are you following him?" "Yeah"

Now if you want to say it is not yet proven, that's fine. But claiming "no evidence" is hypocritical.

 

[Ian]

Quote from Bikewer:

Police departments vary wildly as to who they hire to do what. When I started, "communications" personnel were all commissioned officers. Often, they were temporarily "off the street" due to injuries or whatever, but there were many who just enjoyed the job and were good at it.
Now, it's fairly common to have civilians working "the desk", with perhaps a police officer or sergeant supervising to field the constant flow of legal questions.
( I have intended to write a book about my experiences working "the desk"....I have stories..)
Dispatchers, the guys who actually work the radio, are almost always civilian. It's a dreadful job, frankly. Highly stressful and with a load of responsibility. Those that are good at it are worth their weight in gold. Those who are not are a danger to everyone and far too often get retained anyway as it's so hard to find people to fill these typically-underpaid positons.

Thank you. We are underappreciated and often overtaxed in the job. I have not only spoken to people who, against my advice, were in the process of stalking subjects and only making a possibly bad situation worse. I have, on occasion, spoken to people who had a mobile phone in one hand and nothing in the other who were chasing, either on foot or in a vehicle, armed robbers. In each case the caller saw that the subject had a gun and had just used it in a violent crime and they followed anyway, despite anything I said.

If you call 911, please take everything the call-taker says seriously.

 

[BenBurch]

Actually, I believe it may have been Martin who was properly exercising his rights under the Florida self defense law.

Looked at from his POV, Zimmerman was a probable and even likely assailant.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

He stopped playing football when he was 14, so that pic is at least 3 years old.

Do you have any evidence Trayvon looked like a gang member?

 

[WildCat]

It apparently didn't dawn on him that the attempt to detain Martin was, per se, a crime.

And it still hasn't dawned on you that there is no evidence whatsoever at this point Zimmerman intended to or attempted to detain Martin.

 

[WildCat]

Cow cookies. He expressed some displeasure over the fact that so many suspects got away while he was on the phone to the police.

He changed the rendevous point with the police to continue trying to interdict Martin. He succeded.

How is "expressing displeasure" that the burglars in the neighborhood "always get away" indicative that Zimmerman intended to detain Martin?

 

[ehcks]

And it still hasn't dawned on you that there is no evidence whatsoever at this point Zimmerman intended to or attempted to detain Martin.

http://www.mojoimage.com/free-image-hosting-10/7901retreatmap2.jpg

Purple Arrow - Main Entrance
Dark Blue Oval - Clubhouse (initial area of Trayvon in 911 call)
Orange X - 2831 Retreat view circle address
Yellow X - approximate location of body
Light blue X - Approx loc where father was living
Red arrow - Back entrance

(2831 is the address on the police report so that's the significance of that place)

There is no reasonable explanation for the location of Trayvon's body except that Zimmerman not only attempted to detain him, but actually did cut off his path home.