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Explain consciousness to the layman.

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The simple reality is that people reading forums usually have quite a bit of reading to do in the first place, so it is only natural to expect them to skip the long boring posts.

Not all ideas can be boiled down to 2 paragraphs.

I'm just sayin'.

If you don't have the time or discipline to follow an argument longer than that, well, OK, but that's hardly my problem.
 
So which is it?.....make up your mind already. If consciousness is information processing then a computer is conscious but you deny that.....or are you now affirming it?

Sorry I forgot to include the qualifier "type of" in that statement.

Consciousness is a type of information processing. As in, a square is a type of rectangle. Not all rectangles are squares, and not all information processing is a consciousness. That should answer any question you have.

I know this invalidates the entire rest of your post, so again I apologize for the oversight.
 
You keep bringing this up as though it is important. Why ?

Well, just go back and look at the post I was responding to.

All of this business about being able to make conscious brains out of rope, or programming consciousness, or people inside simulations becoming conscious arises from a conflation between what's real and what's imaginary.

That's why it's critically important that no actual flocking behavior can be observed or measured in a computer that's running a simulation of a flock of birds.

Once we make the proper distinction between what goes on in our imaginations and what goes on in the real world outside our skulls, it's clear why all of those claims make no sense.
 
The concept of the tree is formed by perception of it.

Actually, it's not. Neurobiology has firmly established that perception is not identical with consciousness, and that there are all sorts of things we perceive, and even act on, without possibly being able to form concepts about them.
 
Would it help if I changed that to "some people can distinguish between consciousness and unconsciousness"? because that's what I really meant. My phrasing was sloppy & ambiguous. Par for the course ;)
 
Well, yes and no. Yes, the concept of a pebble in the non-conscious mind is an effect, and so is a wave caused by the pebble in the pond. So in terms of being an effect, they're the same.

But no, this is neither a problem, nor does it entail that there's no distinction between the concept of a pebble in the non-conscious mind and a wave. There are very big distinctions. My non-conscious mind can utilize the pebble in a model of reality in order to adjust non-conscious intentions; it can, effectively, run simulations, and use the result of those simulations to plan actions.

Back to the tree for a clearer example, I could be walking along a trail with my friend being completely engaged in a conversation, turning around, advancing, and so forth. Without even thinking about it, I can adjust the path I'm walking such that I don't run smack dab into the tree--specifically because my non-conscious brain models the tree, models it as a solid object, predicts that it would not quite be an effective route to walk through the tree, and adjusts the path I'm walking.

Now, the wave in the pond could also potentially be used in a model of reality by some sort of planning agent like this. But I just don't see how it can, unless you explicitly put an agency there that can do it.

Being an effect doesn't make a thing an intension. Intensions are representations used in models of reality by agencies.

I would submit that there is no "concept of a pebble" in your non-conscious brain. Nor does there need to be.

And what "agency" do you find there to make use of such a concept?
 
A consciousness in a simulation is a real consciousness, because consciousness is information processing, and all information is still information.

Still waiting for a workable definition of those terms, "information" and "information processing", as well as some evidence that consciousness is (or even could be) the result of it.
 
I would like you to name one "change in the world" which is caused by the running of a digital computer simulation of a tornado which is the type of change we would expect from a tornado and not from a simulator machine, except for causing a human being to imagine a tornado which is what the simulator machine is designed to do.

I don't believe you can do that.

Hook up a fan to the computer running the simulation.
 

Suppose someone you love dearly were in a horrible accident and reduced to an apparent vegetative state.

Would it make any difference to you to know whether or not your loved one was having any experience, either of the world or some dreamlike state?

If so, then what you are concerned with is precisely whether or not your loved one's brain activity includes, or does not include, the performance of experience, which is consciousness.

That seems fairly simple to understand to me.
 
Hook up a fan to the computer running the simulation.

Which is what we expect from a fan.

I would say "nice try", but it really wasn't, was it?

And in any case, if you're going to say that the simulator machine can produce a tornado if it's got the right hardware to do what we do in the storm box, then we're no longer talking about a digital simulation, but a replica which is produced with the aid of a computer.

In which case, you have indeed joined me and Westprog and Leumas and the others in the biological camp, because none of us claim that a computer + the right hardware cannot make up a conscious machine.

What we do know, however, is that programming alone, with just enough hardware to "run the logic" and no more, cannot produce consciousness, for the same reason that it can't produce a tornado.
 
Still waiting for a workable definition of those terms, "information" and "information processing", as well as some evidence that consciousness is (or even could be) the result of it.

Well, you are still waiting, I agree.
 
No, I did not make up the word "replica". Scrounge around for an old dictionary, you'll find it there.

I don't think you made up the term "replica."

I just think you made up the context in which you keep using it.

In particular, I think if someone tried to join this thread now, and hadn't read your posts from day 1, they would have no clue what you are talking about.
 
YI would like to talk about an objective, physical description of an algorithm that doesn't refer to intentionality or purpose. If it is being claimed that the subjective experience of executing a particular algorithm on a computer can be identical to the subjective experience of a human being, then I'd like an objective experience of what "executing an algorithm" actually means.

I'd like to talk about that, but I don't expect to.

OK well how about,

An algorithm is a series of steps, applied in sequence, to an apparatus. Each step is one of a finite number of simple manipulations of the apparatus. The end state of the apparatus is then said to be the result of the algorithm.

Any good?
 
The concept of the tree is formed by perception of it.
Actually, it's not. Neurobiology has firmly established that perception is not identical with consciousness, and that there are all sorts of things we perceive, and even act on, without possibly being able to form concepts about them.
Your response has nothing to do with what I said.
 
I would submit that there is no "concept of a pebble" in your non-conscious brain. Nor does there need to be.
I believe that either there is a severe mismatch of terminology here, or a severe lack of appreciation of how technically difficult the "ordinary" is.
And what "agency" do you find there to make use of such a concept?
The one that is performing voluntary actions as opposed to involuntary ones. That, incidentally, is a pointer, not a definition. But do note something that's interesting about this... (1) there is a difference between voluntary and involuntary actions, (2) voluntary actions nevertheless do not require conscious awareness.
 
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Suppose someone you love dearly were in a horrible accident and reduced to an apparent vegetative state.
...
I would want them to be consciously aware, and also to be okay in general. But this example is just randomly emoting at the problem.

Conscious awareness I have a handle on, but as I keep saying--all of the complicated things we do, we can do without being consciously aware of. Are they part of consciousness or not? This isn't about definition--this is about what is and isn't included in the concept.
 
Perhaps you can't be thinking that your thinking nothing at the time you're not thinking it, but you can easily be not thinking and then someone comes along and says "what are you thinking about?" and you realise "nothing".

I am glad you realize this, because to me it seems central to the discussion and yet almost everyone just glosses over it. Especially when it comes to qualia.

Suppose you are standing in front of a Rothko. I love Mark Rothko, he is one of my favorite artists, and not many people know this but his intended way of experiencing his work is to stand right in front of it, just a few feet away, so that your entire peripheral vision is filled with the painting. When you do this, something special happens which I can only describe as a feeling like you are in the painting, or even that you are the painting ( which is just a mass of color, so don't read too much into that ), and it is pretty cool.

So I like to use "standing in front of a Rothko" as the quintessential scenario for producing qualia in our minds. If you would ever experience "seeing red," it would be when you stand in front of a red Rothko.

Anyway -- you are standing in front of a red Rothko.

There are two possibilities for what you are "thinking," ( and I accept the sort of intuitive definition you gave ) -- either you are thinking about seeing red, or you are not. That "not" could include just about anything, for example say there is a cute girl next to you and you are utterly focused on her presence although you are pretending to look at the Rothko.

Now obviously when you are not thinking about seeing red you are unaware of the fact that you may be experiencing seeing red. And it isn't until someone asks you about it -- perhaps the girl, maybe she says "isn't this red exquisite?" -- that you realize you were experiencing seeing red.

So clearly there is a distinction between those two mental states and how they relate to the quale of redness. The fundamental question of consciousness, to me at least, is how those mental states are different and what it implies.

And I think the answer is just right under our noses -- that you are focused on the experience, actively thinking about it, in the latter case but not the former. And since every case where we wonder about qualia involves thinking, and actually focusing on the experience of something like seeing red, it seems to me that explaining qualia is as simple as just thinking about an experience -- like thinking about seeing red.

What is "seeing red" without the "thinking about seeing red?" I don't know -- whenever I think about it, I am thinking about it, and whenever I think about doing it in the past, I am thinking about my memories of something I was not consciously aware of at the time, and I am not convinced those memories are reliably uncontaminated by thought. To elicit a memory and not have it contaminated by your current thoughts would entail somehow doing it without thinking about it, and I don't see how memory can be consciously accessed in such a way.

That is one of the reasons I don't agree with the "hard problem of consciousness" crowd. I think they are pondering how the experience of seeing red arises, and although they realize that they are thinking about it, they also think they can just extrapolate to some "thoughtless" type of experience and the experience would remain the same. I don't buy that, primarily because when I am not thinking about seeing red, I have no idea what it is like to see red. Maybe I am different than most people, but that is just the way my brain works -- when I am sitting here typing, the red portions of the screen are just another aspect of my visual field. It isn't until I look at them and think "red" that I am "experiencing seeing red."

I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
 
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