Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

That's weird because you are the one that linked to the story!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8125741#post8125741

I guess it didn't jump out at me because it's an unsourced claim. Nothing in any official report or statement says anything about getting out to look at a sign. In fact, the official statement says Zimmerman got out to follow, then lost sight of Martin and was returning to his vehicle when he was jumped from behind.

And in the recorded call Zimmerman made to police he gives his location, but you don't hear it because it's censored out of the publicly released version, you just get silence when he gives the address. The same censorship is in the other 911 calls from others, the address is redacted from the recording released publicly.

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't need facts in this case beyond unarmed teen, guy with gun acting menacing, ordered by police to desist, shoots teen.

In Illinois I could get a GJ to indict and a jury to convict on just what is public now.

Yes, but would you wait until the GJ at least has a chance before going off the deep end about the case?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

He was just moving to a street he could spell?

 

[LTC8K6]

I guess it didn't jump out at me because it's an unsourced claim. Nothing in any official report or statement says anything about getting out to look at a sign. In fact, the official statement says Zimmerman got out to follow, then lost sight of Martin and was returning to his vehicle when he was jumped from behind.

And in the recorded call Zimmerman made to police he gives his location, but you don't hear it because it's censored out of the publicly released version, you just get silence when he gives the address. The same censorship is in the other 911 calls from others, the address is redacted from the recording released publicly.

Yes, that's what's odd. The story has a little bit of the official info in it, and the rest seems to be unsourced.

 

[WildCat]

I don't need facts in this case beyond unarmed teen, guy with gun acting menacing, ordered by police to desist, shoots teen.

In Illinois I could get a GJ to indict and a jury to convict on just what is public now.

"Menacing" is your speculation, and there was no order by police to desist.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Lefty, I find the guy as creepy as you do, but can you please stop calling him "Fatso"?

It detracts from the points you're trying to make and just agitates people you're trying to convince.

^^^^This.

You make up cutesy nicknames... I got confused, thinking you had brought Rush Limbaugh into the conversation somehow. It's childish, man.

 

[Unabogie]

"Menacing" is your speculation, and there was no order by police to desist.

No, menacing is how his girlfriend remembers Trayvon describing the situation. Enough so that upon hearing his description of the situation, she begged him to run.

Why are you trying so hard to force the interpretation towards what's most favorable to the shooter? To the point where you're trying to convince everyone that Trayvon wasn't even scared?

Your earlier question about why he didn't dial 911 sort of speaks to your biases and experiences. I've heard many times that for many black people, calling the police is a last resort, not like us, where it's the first thing you or I think of. The police are sometimes seen as harassers and troublemakers. What's far more clear is that he was telling someone else - someone he trusted - that Zimmerman was scaring him.

I'm not sure why you can't just acknowledge that both people were scared?

 

[Freddy]

In Zimmerman's version of the story he was attacked from behind, and didn't have a chance to retreat. If no evidence is found to the contrary then SYG has nothing to do with this case.

Duty to retreat applies in circumstances such as someone is breaking in the front door and you stand your ground rather than retreating out the back door. It doesn't apply if you are attacked and have no opportunity to retreat.

The legal pundits thus far commenting are basically talking out their asses, they (like us) don't have access to the facts of the case.

If nothing else, SYG is relevant because it affected how the police investigated the shooting.

In addition, a surprise attack from behind is inconsistent with the girlfriend's account. She was on the phone with Martin, and heard him demand to know why Zimmerman was following him. It is possible that Martin confronted Zimmerman as Zimmerman was headed back to his car, but there is evidence that the confrontation was initially a verbal one. We don't know who dealt the first blow, at what point the gun came out, or whether Martin was close enough to still be a threat once Zimmerman drew his weapon. Forensics should be able to tell us approximately how far apart they were when the shot was fired, and that fact will be highly probative, and possibly dispositive, of the reasonableness of Zimmerman's fear for life and limb.

 

[WildCat]

No, menacing is how his girlfriend remembers Trayvon describing the situation. Enough so that upon hearing his description of the situation, she begged him to run.

Why are you trying so hard to force the interpretation towards what's most favorable to the shooter? To the point where you're trying to convince everyone that Trayvon wasn't even scared?

Your earlier question about why he didn't dial 911 sort of speaks to your biases and experiences. I've heard many times that for many black people, calling the police is a last resort, not like us, where it's the first thing you or I think of. The police are sometimes seen as harassers and troublemakers. What's far more clear is that he was telling someone else - someone he trusted - that Zimmerman was scaring him.

I'm not sure why you can't just acknowledge that both people were scared?

The burden of proof in the courtroom is on the prosecution, and they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. This case won't be tried on this forum, or on facebook or twitter.

I'm pointing out the problems with charging him. This isn't the clear-cut case many here are making it out to be.

 

[LTC8K6]

No, menacing is how his girlfriend remembers Trayvon describing the situation. Enough so that upon hearing his description of the situation, she begged him to run.

Why are you trying so hard to force the interpretation towards what's most favorable to the shooter? To the point where you're trying to convince everyone that Trayvon wasn't even scared?

Your earlier question about why he didn't dial 911 sort of speaks to your biases and experiences. I've heard many times that for many black people, calling the police is a last resort, not like us, where it's the first thing you or I think of. The police are sometimes seen as harassers and troublemakers. What's far more clear is that he was telling someone else - someone he trusted - that Zimmerman was scaring him.

I'm not sure why you can't just acknowledge that both people were scared?

There is no recording of the phone call between Martin and his girlfriend.

Why should her story or her interpretations be given any value? Or any higher value than any other info that we have heard?

 

[Caper]

The burden of proof in the courtroom is on the prosecution, and they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. This case won't be tried on this forum, or on facebook or twitter.

I'm pointing out the problems with charging him. This isn't the clear-cut case many here are making it out to be.

I tend to agree. It really does seem that the kid that died had just as much right or more to murder the other guy.

 

[WildCat]

If nothing else, SYG is relevant because it affected how the police investigated the shooting.

When did the police cite the SYG section of the law as a reason for not arresting Zimmerman?

In addition, a surprise attack from behind is inconsistent with the girlfriend's account. She was on the phone with Martin, and heard him demand to know why Zimmerman was following him.

Not inconsistent at all, as this account has Martin making first contact.

It is possible that Martin confronted Zimmerman as Zimmerman was headed back to his car, but there is evidence that the confrontation was initially a verbal one. We don't know who dealt the first blow, at what point the gun came out, or whether Martin was close enough to still be a threat once Zimmerman drew his weapon. Forensics should be able to tell us approximately how far apart they were when the shot was fired, and that fact will be highly probative, and possibly dispositive, of the reasonableness of Zimmerman's fear for life and limb.

And that is the crux of this case. And it is up to the prosecution to prove these things in the courtroom, it's not up to Zimmerman to prove his version.

Certainly, the result of this can be a man gets away with murder. But as I already mentioned earlier in this thread that's the way the playing field is tilted in our system. "Better to let 10 guilty men go free than to wrongly convict one innocent man" as it's often said.

 

[Unabogie]

There is no recording of the phone call between Martin and his girlfriend.

Why should her story or her interpretations be given any value? Or any higher value than any other info that we have heard?

What an odd question. Because she's the last witness to speak to the murdered teen aside from his killer?

 

[Unabogie]

The burden of proof in the courtroom is on the prosecution, and they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. This case won't be tried on this forum, or on facebook or twitter.

I'm pointing out the problems with charging him. This isn't the clear-cut case many here are making it out to be.

Are we staging a mock trial or attempting to find some truth?

 

[Information Analyst]

In the US, you are considered innocent until proven guilty, and this presumption is very strong.

The charges usually will not be brought at all, unless the case is reasonably strong, and the prosecutor thinks there is a good chance at conviction.

You are innocent until proven guilty in the UK, as well, but that wouldn't stop someone who claimed self-defence which resulted in a death being investigated to the minutest detail.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Are we staging a mock trial or attempting to find some truth?

Both, as usual for the forum. Any forum anywhere to be fair...

 

[Unabogie]

Both, as usual for the forum. Any forum anywhere to be fair...

But I see no reason for Wildcat to insist on those kinds of strict standards of evidence here in this discussion, and only when speculating about things bad for the shooter. Granted, I have my own opinion about the righteousness of this shooting, but I'm not trying to gainsay anything that contradicts this.

 

[triforcharity]

You are innocent until proven guilty in the UK, as well, but that wouldn't stop someone who claimed self-defence which resulted in a death being investigated to the minutest detail.

Absolutely. And THAT is the BIGGEST problem. The Sanford PD did NOT do this, at all. In fact, based on what's been done up to this point, it seems they didn't do jack ****.

 

[LTC8K6]

You are innocent until proven guilty in the UK, as well, but that wouldn't stop someone who claimed self-defence which resulted in a death being investigated to the minutest detail.

Thanks, but I already knew that the laws varied in different jurisdictions.

 

[commandlinegamer]

And that is the crux of this case. And it is up to the prosecution to prove these things in the courtroom, it's not up to Zimmerman to prove his version.

There's the rub, though.

Hypothetically:

Person X and person Y who are unknown to each other have an encounter. Person Y ends up dead, shot. There are not witnesses.

Person X admits the shooting, and ballistic evidence from the weapon and victim bears this out.

Person X claims self-defence.

But say we have no evidence (bruises or wounds from a struggle, perhaps) to corroborate that part of the story, what do we do then?