Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Dancing David]

Not at all. I was pointing out that other reports painted a different picture.

Other reports that don't seem to exist?
Use the history on your browser, it will tell you where yo went.

All along I have said that either side might have been at fault and that the shooting may or may not have been justified but, on the information available, we just don't know.

YOU seem to be unwilling to go beyond "Zimmerman bad". Well, maybe he is, maybe he isn't - I am fair minded enough to say that I don't know, rather than forming an internet lynch mob.

And where did I say that, hmmm?

Is this some amazing mentalist trick?


I did not say Zimmerman was bad, as I recall I stated he engaged in an extrajudicial action.

So where did I make these statements that you are alleging.

In some article that you can't cite?

ETA: I just reviewed my posts, I think yo statement is false and based upon mistaken identity.

The most un neutral thing I said was that Zimmerman was a vigilante.

 

[Giz]

I did not say Zimmerman was bad, as I recall I stated he engaged in an extrajudicial action.

And there it is. I have said that it might, or might not, have been a justified shooting. Everything that you have said paints it as being unjustified - when the information isn't available to determine that.

Oh boy, I hope you are never a juror. Ready to convict, facts be damned.

 

[rwguinn]

And there it is. I have said that it might, or might not, have been a justified shooting. Everything that you have said paints it as being unjustified - when the information isn't available to determine that.

Oh boy, I hope you are never a juror. Ready to convict, facts be damned.

Huh?
I don't agree with DD usually, but his choice of wording is absolutely correct in this case
"Extrajudicial" means outside the court/legal system. Even self-defense is extrajudicial--you are acting as judge, jury, and executioner based on circumstances of the moment.
It may come to pass that the extrajudicial action was justified, or not. That will happen within the system, in due course of time.

 

[WildCat]

How to get "justice"

Yep, threaten until you get an answer you like...

Maybe they'd settle for a lynching?

 

[Dancing David]

And there it is. I have said that it might, or might not, have been a justified shooting. Everything that you have said paints it as being unjustified - when the information isn't available to determine that.

Oh boy, I hope you are never a juror. Ready to convict, facts be damned.

How is that a condemnation?

Seriously, what dictionary are you using? Never have I said that it may not qualify as self defense.

You are really a hoot!

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/extrajudicial

Definition of EXTRAJUDICIAL
1a : not forming a valid part of regular legal proceedings <an extrajudicial investigation> b : delivered without legal authority : private 2a(2) <the judge's extrajudicial statements>
2: done in contravention of due process of law <an extrajudicial execution>

: done in contravention of due process of law

So due process did not occur, there was an action bt citizen that was extrajudicial. It may be that charges are never pressed, it may be that he is never brought to trial, he may be found innocent if he does have atrial.

And you have quite an imagination!

 

[Giz]

Seriously, what dictionary are you using? Never have I said that it may not qualify as self defense.

You are really a hoot!

Ahem, "I do not think that itw as a case of racism by the police, but a vigilante acting on his own , shot a citizen. "

Remember that?

 

[Checkmite]

 

[Dancing David]

Ahem, "I do not think that itw as a case of racism by the police, but a vigilante acting on his own , shot a citizen. "

Remember that?

A vigilante (which a member of a neighborhood watch is in the sense that they are there to report crimes), acting on their own (which they were), shot a citizen (which they admitted to doing).

How is this a condemnation of Zimmerman, it is a statement?

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/vigilante

vig·i·lan·te
NOUN:
1. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.
2. A member of a vigilance committee.
ETYMOLOGY:
Spanish, watchman, vigilante, from Latin vigilns, vigilant- present participle of vigilre, to be watchful, from vigil, watchful; see weg- in Indo-European roots

So this is not always a condemnation, if the court decides that the action was taken in self defense.

Now I am also someone conversant is español and so I may not always use in terms of a vigilante committee, which is definitely and always extrajudicial, often and mostly illegal. And certainly I did not intend it as always meaning an illegal act.

I was thinking of it in the sense of a guard, which comes from the italian guardare (to look at). Perhaps learning spanish in my youth and italian in college is confusing. And they we have vigilante from the latin (which fortunately I don't speak) as vigilis urbani, who were tasked with watching for fires, runaway slaves and burglaries.

 

[Bikewer]

"neighborhood watch” programs are in place all over the country. It's "observe and report", not armed patrol and confrontation.

 

[Checkmite]

"neighborhood watch” programs are in place all over the country. It's "observe and report", not armed patrol and confrontation.

That's a big part of my problem with the situation. It's easy to keep interjecting about how the details of the scuffle itself are unknown; but some details of the larger situation are known. And among them are the fact that Zimmerman stopped being a "neighborhood watch captain" the moment he stepped out of his car with a gun and set off in pursuit of Martin. At that point he was some guy who made a decision to take a gun and confront a kid who hadn't done anything. The last decision we know for certain that Martin made was to walk home. Only one of these people had the free opportunity to prevent this tragedy before it began.

 

[fishbob]

I'm not sure how to get to "in a gang" and "kicked out of school" from this.

The ultimate source for this kind of thing:
P ulled
O ut
O f
P osterior

 

[crimresearch]

More things to make you go Hmmm...

According to the National Sheriffs Association handbook, official members of Neighborhood Watch
should be reporting to the Watch Coordinator... a Captain would not be someone in charge. They are also say this about patrols:

Patrol members should be trained by law enforcement. It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. MEMBERS SHOULD NEVER CONFRONT SUSPICOUS PERSONS WHO COULD BE ARMED AND DANGEROUS.

This is repeated under patrol procedures, where it sets up a minimum of 2 persons per patrol.

This lends credence to the media's calling Zimmerman 'self appointed'... In other words, unless the property owner had him authorized and licensed to work armed security, he was a loose cannon.

Speaking of which , not only does he have a documented history of violent run ins with the police (the dropped charges turn out to have been dropped after completing a diversionary program), but he has a history of violent encounters from rushing in while 'working security' before.
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

Something's missing at one end or the other of this.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Self appointed could just mean that he volunteered as opposed to be elected. So many assumptions by people.

History of violent run ins? He was punched while trying to break up a fight, he was robbed at gun point. Wow, what a menace. We might want to consider locking up people who are robbed at gun point and get their jaw broken trying to break up fights. Those damn violent victims.

 

[Moss]

Small question regarding self defense in US law: I think here(Germany) you need to prove self defense beyond doubt to get the charges for the violence needed to repell the unlawful attack dropped. Unless you do get the sentence accorded to violent action used. (E. g. manslaughter)
Do I understand it correctly that in the U. S. law enforcement has to gather evidence to build a case that it was not self defense before the person using violence can be charged?

 

[Checkmite]

Self appointed could just mean that he volunteered as opposed to be elected. So many assumptions by people.

History of violent run ins? He was punched while trying to break up a fight, he was robbed at gun point. Wow, what a menace. We might want to consider locking up people who are robbed at gun point and get their jaw broken trying to break up fights. Those damn violent victims.

How about we lock up people who shoot unarmed kids to death for trying to get home on a rainy night? Is that too ridiculous as well?

 

[ponderingturtle]

How about we lock up people who shoot unarmed kids to death for trying to get home on a rainy night? Is that too ridiculous as well?

Look it was too people who had a confrontation that resulted in one of their deaths, not something illegal that the police need to be all that concerned about. I am sure if the guy was killed by the kid nothing would happen either, after all he was a creep stalking you with a gun.

 

[LTC8K6]

Small question regarding self defense in US law: I think here(Germany) you need to prove self defense beyond doubt to get the charges for the violence needed to repell the unlawful attack dropped. Unless you do get the sentence accorded to violent action used. (E. g. manslaughter)
Do I understand it correctly that in the U. S. law enforcement has to gather evidence to build a case that it was not self defense before the person using violence can be charged?

In the US, you are considered innocent until proven guilty, and this presumption is very strong.

The charges usually will not be brought at all, unless the case is reasonably strong, and the prosecutor thinks there is a good chance at conviction.

 

[sgtbaker]

How to get "justice"

Yep, threaten until you get an answer you like...

This is really beginning to bother me. Once race becomes a matter, there is no winning. There are marches and rallies going on, demanding an arrest. I have nothing against demanding further investigation but demanding an arrest when there is not enough evidence is not how our justice system works.

 

[WildCat]

Small question regarding self defense in US law: I think here(Germany) you need to prove self defense beyond doubt to get the charges for the violence needed to repell the unlawful attack dropped. Unless you do get the sentence accorded to violent action used. (E. g. manslaughter)
Do I understand it correctly that in the U. S. law enforcement has to gather evidence to build a case that it was not self defense before the person using violence can be charged?

Yes, here you are presumed innocent unless proven guilty.

 

[tyr_13]

I also like how people keep throwing out 'with a gun' as if the unfortunate teenager had some psychic ability to know the guy behind him is packing, or that the older guy was waving the gun and running after him screaming. Either of those possibilities is reasonably unlikely given the information we have.

For someone to be concerned about 'a white guy chasing him with a gun', they have to actually suspect that the person has a gun. It doesn't appear it was presented until well into the confrontation.