Explain consciousness to the layman.

[PixyMisa]

Wondering how if the computational encodings only use/borrow representational content that is already available... how this computational "consciousness" deals with what would have to be undefined/unspecified: to be exact, external, "new" representational content?

What am I missing?

You're missing that neither our senses nor our brain works like that. Our senses reduce everything to coded nerve pulses. All the brain does is process and store coded nerve pulses and return new coded nerve pulses.

When something new arrives, it is new only in that that precise pattern of pulses hasn't been previously encountered. It can still be classified and correlated by its similarities to other patterns.

 

[PixyMisa]

More theistic abject shenanigans..... make up "facts" out of thin air.....when asked for a reference or citations or evidence.....they SHIFT THE BURDEN OF PROOF and ask us to do the work of disproving their pulled out of the arse claims.

If you had simply asked a question rather than posting obnoxious drivel, you might have a point.

You didn't. You don't. You are just posting more obnoxious drivel.

Ah.... and do not forget the ad hominems they hurl while they are at it dishing out fallacies by the hordes.

Yes, you should stop that.

In any case..... here we go

[Complete failure of comprehension snipped.]

Leumas, how many transistors and interconnections are there in a modern computer? Roughly? Order of magnitude?

And how many computers are there on the internet?

 

[Leumas]

[snip lots of theistic tomfoolery]

Leumas, how many transistors and interconnections are there in a modern computer? Roughly? Order of magnitude?

How many cells and interconnections are there in a neuron? Roughly? Order of magnitude?


And which do you reckon is more complex .... a cell.... or a transistor?

And how many computers are there on the internet?

You tell me..... I thought I already told you..... go back and READ the post you tried to respond to.

 

[PixyMisa]

How many cells are there in a neuron and interconnections? Roughly? Order of magnitude?

A neuron is a cell, so, one.

And which do you reckon is more complex .... a cell.... or a transistor?

A neuron is more structurally complex. A transistor is several orders of magnitude faster, so for dynamic complexity it may be a wash.

You tell me..... I thought I already told you..... go back and READ the post you tried to respond to.

You said users. Users aren't relevant.

Count the computers, and the components that make up the computers. It's simple arithmetic; we only need to deal with orders of magnitude.

 

[Leumas]

Count the computers,

So why don't you tell us what this number is? I have already asked you 4 times and every time you evade the question but yet tell me to count them and when I give you a number you dismiss it as irrelevant. So please enlighten us o knowing one.

Do you or do you not have the number?


Another question you evaded..... is the internet conscious?


Or are you going to call the questions drivel again?

A neuron is a cell, so, one.

A neuron is more structurally complex. A transistor is several orders of magnitude faster, so for dynamic complexity it may be a wash.

 

[PixyMisa]

So why don't you tell us what this number is? I have already asked you 4 times and every time you evade the question but yet tell me to count them and when I give you a number you dismiss it as irrelevant. So please enlighten us o knowing one.

If you give an irrelevant number, you can expect to be told that it's irrelevant. Complaining about that seems pointless.

Do you or do you not have the number?

On the order of a billion. That's precise enough for our purposes.

Now, how many transistors are there in the average modern computer?

Another question you evaded..... is the internet conscious?

Or are you going to call the questions drivel again?

Sure.

Yes? I saw that the first time. Did you read the file description when you posted it? Neuron cell diagram.

As I said, a neuron is a cell. So the number of cells in a neuron is, by definition, one.

 

[!Kaggen]

All the brain does is process and store coded nerve pulses and return new coded nerve pulses.

Yes, all a brain does is what a brain does.
Thanks for enlightening us with your amazing wisdom.
Mu

 

[!Kaggen]

I Neuron cell diagram.

As I said, a neuron is a cell. So the number of cells in a neuron is, by definition, one.

Yeah sure attack the messenger.
Lets translate the picture for you then.
You see all the different structures making up a neuron cell?
Let us start with the DNA in the cell nucleus which holds sufficient information to participate rather dominantly in building a human body with 100 trillion cells.

You get the picture?

 

[psionl0]

A neuron is more structurally complex. A transistor is several orders of magnitude faster, so for dynamic complexity it may be a wash.

Isn't a neuron like a logic gate that can be fired by a combination of weighted inputs?

It would take quite a few transistors to construct an electronic neuron.

 

[PixyMisa]

Yes, all a brain does is what a brain does.
Thanks for enlightening us with your amazing wisdom.

That is not what I said. If intended as a response to my post it is either hopelessly confused or deeply dishonest.

Yeah sure attack the messenger.

Again, hopelessly confused or deeply dishonest.

I did no such thing.

Lets translate the picture for you then.
You see all the different structures making up a neuron cell?

Yes, of course.

Let us start with the DNA in the cell nucleus which holds sufficient information to participate rather dominantly in building a human body with 100 trillion cells.

The number of cells is irrelevant here, since there are a relatively small number of cell types all with identical DNA.

You get the picture?

I understand that you are trying to make a point, but have failed to do so.

 

[Leumas]

Yes? I saw that the first time. Did you read the file description when you posted it? Neuron cell diagram.

You are right....... I should have asked how many components a Neuron has instead of how many cells. This would be more akin to asking how many transistors a computer has.

But you are also slightly wrong (though perhaps not technically).... a neuron has other cells as part of its structure.....did you notice the Schwann Cells.

 

[PixyMisa]

Isn't a neuron like a logic gate that can be fired by a combination of weighted inputs?

Yep.

It would take quite a few transistors to construct an electronic neuron.

Yes, quite a few. (Leaving aside the fact that transistors are many orders of magnitude faster, and so you could fold multiple neurons into one set of transistors by some sort of time-slicing.)

Now if Leumas had actually thought his position through and looked up some numbers, he would be aware that there are quite a few transistors around.

A computer a few years old and underpowered for modern tasks might have 10 billion or so transistors. My new computer has around 300 billion.

Let's take the lower number for argument's sake. If the internet is comprised of a billion computers each with 10 billion transistors, that makes 10 quintillion transistors, as opposed to the 100 billion or so neurons in the brain.

It might take a thousand transistors to match the complexity of a neuron. And a majority of the transistors in a typical computer are devoted to memory and not calculation, so let's knock off another factor of 10 for that.

Even then, the numbers make the internet - very conservatively - 1000 times as complex as the human brain.

 

[PixyMisa]

You are right....... I should have asked how many components a Neuron has instead of how many cells. This would be more akin to asking how many transistors a computer has.

But you are also slightly wrong (though perhaps not technically).... a neuron has other cells as part of its structure.....did you notice the Schwann Cells.

You're right - they're not actually part of the neuron, but they are part of the brain's function. They're a type of glial cell, and there's about as many glial cells in the brain as there are neurons.

 

[PixyMisa]

And see, if you post facts and ask questions, you will get responses.

So, basically, the brain has 100,000,000,000 neurons.

The internet has (conservatively) 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 transistors.

Line the two numbers up:

100,000,000,000 neurons
10,000,000,000,000,000,000 transistors

You can see just how vast and complex the internet is when considered as a system. Even though transistors are much simpler than neurons, there are just so many more of them that the numbers swamp everything else.

 

[!Kaggen]

The number of cells is irrelevant here, since there are a relatively small number of cell types all with identical DNA.

Yes all the DNA in every cell is identical.
All the atoms in adenine are identical.
All the electrons in every atom are identical.
Etc Etc

You have a point?

 

[punshhh]

Completely wrong. A simulation is a model.

As its a busy thread I'll focus on a couple of points.

"A simulation is a model", is this model in the form of data?

(I find myself thinking of Piggy's information written on paper, or Rocketdodger's well if we simulate everything and work in the world of the simulation).



Second point, you are including some kind of subjective content in computation. Going back to my mention of Carl Sagan's Blue dot.

The subjective experience of watching the Blue dot is a rather complex and subtle phenomena. Do you envisage computation representing this in any form?



Oh and one more thing, not a question, rather an observation. Everything you have been describing in both brains and computers makes sense and can happen entirely without consciousness, why not just dispense with consciousness entirely, it is "illusory" after all.

 

[!Kaggen]

And see, if you post facts and ask questions, you will get responses.

So, basically, the brain has 100,000,000,000 neurons.

The internet has (conservatively) 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 transistors.

Line the two numbers up:

100,000,000,000 neurons
10,000,000,000,000,000,000 transistors

You can see just how vast and complex the internet is when considered as a system. Even though transistors are much simpler than neurons, there are just so many more of them that the numbers swamp everything else.

Wrong, you arbitrary choose to stop at the neuron level of a brains complexity.

Lets start with chemical compounds that make up a neuron compared to those that make up a transistor.

Get the picture yet?

 

[Leumas]

If you give an irrelevant number, you can expect to be told that it's irrelevant. Complaining about that seems pointless

Irrelevant in you reckoning but not by any normal consideration. In my count the number of users has a DIRECT bearing on the number of computers since users use the computers to connect to the internet and in any case when the web site reported the users I assume they meant IP addresses since that is probably the only way to gauge the count.

So if there are 2.3 billion IP addresses then that makes it roughly 2.3 Billion computers not of course counting the LOCAL IP addresses in a local network. But those do not matter since they are not connected to the network directly anyway

On the order of a billion. That's precise enough for our purposes.

So my number was right after all....

Any way….. they are not 100 Billion are they?

Also the interconnections between them are not 100 TRILLION is it?

Now, how many transistors are there in the average modern computer?

So how many components does a Neuron have?

Sure.

Evading the question is another theistic tactic.


I am going to grant you that the internet is more complex than the human brain..... it is not....but I will grant your assertion in order to formulate my next and more important question.......

why with all that amazing complexity did the internet not develop consciousness yet? Or has it?​

 

[!Kaggen]

Oh and one more thing, not a question, rather an observation. Everything you have been describing in both brains and computers makes sense and can happen entirely without consciousness, why not just dispense with consciousness entirely, it is "illusory" after all.

The problem with "this idea" is that you will need to dispense with the consciousness that concluded 'this idea".
When do you do this before "this idea" or after?

 

[punshhh]

And see, if you post facts and ask questions, you will get responses.

So, basically, the brain has 100,000,000,000 neurons.

The internet has (conservatively) 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 transistors.

Line the two numbers up:

100,000,000,000 neurons
10,000,000,000,000,000,000 transistors

You can see just how vast and complex the internet is when considered as a system. Even though transistors are much simpler than neurons, there are just so many more of them that the numbers swamp everything else.

What about all the neurons in the billion brains interacting with the billion computers? Surely the web is conscious with all that activity.