What's so fantastic about Apple?

[Mumbles]

Are you claiming that the actual components used are technically superior in Apple machines?

I'm claiming that some (though not all) PC vendors use low quality parts and designs, yes. Granted, it's a quick way to get a bad reputation. It's no different than in any other electronics sector.

 

[Chris L]

I'm claiming that some (though not all) PC vendors use low quality parts and designs, yes. Granted, it's a quick way to get a bad reputation. It's no different than in any other electronics sector.

Maybe I'm not asking the question correctly. Are you saying that the components Apple uses in its computers are superior in quality to the components used in other computers with similar specs and price?

 

[Stray Cat]

The problem with your analogy is thus:

Ford doesn't use the same parts as Toyota and then claim that what Ford is selling isn't a car because it has Ford's Sync system integrated.

It's still a car (or truck, as the case may be), and Ford markets it as such. That marketing includes the performance specs (horsepower, features, etc), but they don't say "buy our Focus because it's a Ford, not a car".

That's why your analogy is flawed. Mac vs PC is doing precisely that. The internal components are exactly the same as many Windows or Linux boxes out there. So how is the Mac not a PC?

Maybe my post that you replied to wasn't clear enough, I'll make it clearer;
I wasn't talking about computer components.

Hope this helps.

I should also add that I'm still not discussing the stupid Apple v PC subject. I'm talking about Apple's USP. In doing so, I'm not knocking any other computer company or operating system.

 

[OCaptain]

I think that if you're going to compare the two using cars as an analogy it's better to compare them as left handed vs right handed steering wheels or front wheel vs rear wheel vs 4wd/awd.

The difference is how they do things at the users end and how they can be expected to perform in certain situations. Internally the latest generations are both pretty much the same as far as parts go, it's the user interface and experience that makes them different.

That and how Apple makes it very difficult to do things the way that you want to do them. At least with Microsoft you can change things around to where you can do things differently than what the marketing dept. decided made their product look the best regardless of whether or not it made the machine run at its best. With Apple you are subject to the whims of their marketing dept. and there's not a lot that you can do about it.

Such as?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yep. Apple switched again in 2002 to the same exact x86 architecture as the "PCs" that Apple always claimed superiority over.

BTW, 2006, not 2002.

Which is what I'm saying is a false dichotomy. It covers up the fact that the two machines are basically the same thing. Apples are made of the same hardware with the same technology, by the same manufacturers that make all the same hardware for the other PC manufacturers.

Apple's "Mac vs. PC" ad campaign was based on a disingenuous duplicity, and it reinforced the misconception that Macs are fundamentally different, when in fact they are not.

Mac vs PC has been around long before the Get a Mac campaign. You know, back when OS X ran on PPC ... and Windows ran on X86. When the two machines were, I don't know, fundamentally different.

Is your contention that they should have dropped that campaign when they switched to X86 ?

But it's wrong for any arguments of relative merit. The only appreciable distinction is between the operating systems.

But since you can only run OS X on an apple computer, isn't that enough of a distinction ?
- Mac (the only machine you can run OS X on)
- and PC (everything else)

Apple designs its own OS, and sells machines that only run that OS. That's the difference.
...
So Apple started that ad campaign to convince everyone that "Mac" was still different from "PC," even though they were now practically now the exact same machine. They characterized all non-Apple PCs (regardless of what manufacturer made them or OS they were running) as the same, boring thing with lots of problems that Macs just didn't have. Most of it was pandering, disingenuous claptrap, but people ate it up.

Right. Because the are trying to differentiate the experience of using OS X versus Windows. It's a whole package thing.

personal computer 
noun
a microcomputer designed for individual use, as by a person in an office or at home or school, for such applications as word processing, data management, financial analysis, or computer games. Abbreviation: PC

Seriously - how do you post that definition and then a few posts later claim that it does not apply to my phone or tablet when it clearly does ???

Are smartphones, tablets, game consoles, and ebook readers PC's are not ? If no, why not ?

Nice strawman there. As usual, you guys are totally unable to actually refute my argument with facts, so you simply misrepresent it.

I didn't say that "Mac vs. PC" was not a common meme, that most people recognize. I said that it's a misconception promoted by Apple, because there's no fundamental difference. Macs are the same hardware, made by the very same companies that Apple competes against, just packaged in a fancier box and running a different OS, with an outrageously high price tag.

And a BMW is a Yugo because there is no fundamental difference - it's just a fancier design with a higher price tag, yes ?

The 'outrageously high price' has already been refuted.
BTW, still waiting for that Macbook pro equiv with 1920x1200 resolution, etc. for < 2500.

What is it you are trying to demonstrate ? I think we all understand Macs are personal computers. I think we understand that marketing exists to sell products and create a certain image, etc.

If you think you have demonstrated that Apple, as a company, has done something morally wrong or evil or is a bad company... I don't think you have come close. You've demonstrated you think their kit is overpriced, and you don't like their marketing. Meh. So what.

 

[Bob001]

A look at Apple from deep inside...

Mike Daisey writes and performs fascinating, compelling evening-length monologues about his life experiences. He has staged shows about being a college theatre teacher, about visiting South Pacific islands that once were home to cargo cults, about the secret history of the Department of Homeland Security and more. He always uses his unique experiences as the launchpad for extended observations and commentary about the world. His latest monologue is "The Agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs," which starts with his self-described affection as a "fanboy" for Apple products, and goes on to what he saw during his visits to the Foxconn factories in Shenzhen, China, where hundreds of thousands of workers, some as young as 12, work 16-hour shifts to assemble products by hand. When workers started killing themselves by jumping off factory roofs, management's response was to install nets to catch them. He even pretended to be an American businessman looking for someone to make stuff for him, and got guided tours of the facilities. Daisey's shows are not available anywhere except live (now on Broadway, well worth the price), but he recently appeared on "60 Minutes." I like Apple stuff, too, but we pay a high price for it (and all our other ****, as Daisey calls it), and not just in dollars:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7396762n
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/18/ap/tech/main20121861.shtml
http://theater2.nytimes.com/2011/10...ny-and-the-ecstasy-of-steve-jobs-review.html?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/t...ses-the-agony-and-ecstasy-of-steve-jobs.html?
http://mikedaisey.blogspot.com/p/monologues.html

 

[Fast Eddie B]

This is such a difficult issue.

Of course, its only natural to want decent working conditions for employees, and I would applaud any effort to improve said conditions.

Still, I think that barring slave labor, the employees in question work where they do because its the best job they can find.

If Apple closed the Foxconn factories and moved their production, those employees might be unable to find comparable jobs, or possibly any job at all. People could literally starve.

Can of worms - hope Apple does the right thing (whatever that is).

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I like Apple stuffCHEAP ELECTRONICS, too, but we pay a high price for it (and all our other ****, as Daisey calls it), and not just in dollars:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7396762n

Foxconn, a company that manufactures electronics for practically every major brand you can name.

But if you put 'Apple' in the title, you get ratings.

Here is Apples response from last year.

I would like to see motorola, sony, dell, hp, etc responses.

 

[Bob001]

....Still, I think that barring slave labor, the employees in question work where they do because its the best job they can find.....

That's true enough. But in the U.S. we all agree that there are some things employers just can't do to employees. We might work at a Walmart or a fast-food counter because it's the best job we can find, but our government enforces a minimum wage, maximum hours, child labor restrictions, safety standards etc. Daisey says that China refuses to enforce its own legal standards. In his monologue he tells a story of an older woman who was fired because she appled to a government agency to get the overtime pay that she was owed: NOT anything special, just the pay she had EARNED at the job she had. Not only was she fired, but the government took steps to guarantee that she could never work anywhere else. He says factory managers routinely hide child workers from inspectors, and the inspectors know it. Apple and other manufacturers wouldn't have to do anything revolutionary to improve workers' lives; if they just insisted that China enforce its own laws, it would be a big step forward. It's also the fact that labor costs are a relatively small part of the retail price of these products; it wouldn't cost the consumers -- or the stockholders -- much to treat the workers like human beings.

 

[Chris L]

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7396762n

Foxconn, a company that manufactures electronics for practically every major brand you can name.

But if you put 'Apple' in the title, you get ratings.

Here is Apples response from last year.

I would like to see motorola, sony, dell, hp, etc responses.

So Apple doesn't suck any worse than anyone else? Yeah, that's what's so "fantastic" about Apple.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So Apple doesn't suck any worse than anyone else? Yeah, that's what's so "fantastic" about Apple.

Holy ****, I don't work for apple PR dept., I just like their products.

But for the sake of discussion:
I linked to apples response where they claim to doing certain things.
If they are indeed doing what they state, then , yes, that makes them better than their peers who are not doing those things. That makes them fantastic.

So, feel free to provide evidence that apple is not doing what they claim to improve conditions in their suppliers.

Feel free to provide evidence about what apples peers are doing to improve the situation.

 

[Kid Eager]

So Apple doesn't suck any worse than anyone else? Yeah, that's what's so "fantastic" about Apple.

Feel free to point out another organisation that has taken specific steps to address poor working conditions at its supplier organisation facilities in China.

 

[CosCos]

I'm a fan of Apple products. There, full disclosure.

For the Windows users playing the silly semantic game vis-a-vis the term PC: we get it, an Apple Mac is a personal computer (PC) in the literal sense of the word, no one is arguing that. What you don't seem to get is that in this particular debate, the term PC is used as a catch-all for Windows-based machines. So when people debate Mac vs. PC, they're really talking about Macs vs. Windows. Even those famous commercials from a few years ago, "PC" was an analog for Windows. It seems all the Mac-users on here get it, how come some PC users are having such difficulty grasping that rather basic subject?

I use Windows exclusively at work, so that's 8-10 hours a day. When I get home, all my stuff is done on a Mac unless I need to run a work-centric app. In that case, I launch parallels, launch Win7, launch my program, do what I need to do, shut down parallels and go back to the Mac environment. Yes, I get it, I paid more for my "PC" than you did for yours, and yes, I understand your CPU has higher gigahertz and your video card can demolish mine. Good for you. Guess what, I don't care. I also could've bought a Nissan Altima but chose to go with the Infiniti G37. I understand they're almost identical but I paid $10K more for my car. I don't care. Good for you Altima owners out there, you're happy, I'm happy, no one is trying to convert anyone.

And for the people continuing to spout specs when comparing the iPad with other tablets. You REALLY don't get it do you?

 

[Chris L]

Feel free to point out another organisation that has taken specific steps to address poor working conditions at its supplier organisation facilities in China.

Feel free to show Apple is actually doing something beyond writing a letter.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Feel free to show Apple is actually doing something beyond writing a letter.

OK.

https://www.fairlabor.org/fla/Public/pub/Images_XFile/R514/Apple_Joins_FLA.pdf

January 13, 2012 - The Fair Labor Association today announced that Apple will join the FLA as a Participating Company, effective immediately. The FLA will independently assess facilities in Apple's supply chain and report detailed findings on the FLA website. Apple becomes the first technology company to join the Association as a Participating Company

Honestly, you apple haters make this too easy.

 

[Kid Eager]

Feel free to show Apple is actually doing something beyond writing a letter.

oh, excellent riposte!

I think I've got the hang of this now:

Feel free to show that any other technology manufacturer has written a letter.

If you want to try evidence for 20 points, you can attempt to answer the question previously posed.

 

[John Albert]

Macs all come with a UPS now?

No, Stray Cat was saying that all Macs are delivered by UPS, because they canceled their partnership with Fed Ex.

Actually no, I was just joking.

He was invoking the "UPS" acronym in the sense that it's used in marketing, not in the field of electronic technology. (Why do so many Apple apologists have such a strong tendency to invoke marketing as a defense of the company? I find it rather strange.)

In marketing-speak, a "UPS" is a "unique selling proposition." In other words, it means that a company has devised a business model that differentiates it from the competition in some unique way, and invokes that peculiarity as a selling-point for its products, to build an iconoclastic brand recognition. Whether that unique methodology actually results in a better product may be debatable, but the point is that such companies usually charge premium prices within a rarefied, niche market on the pretext of being different in a better way. Companies with that business model tend to cultivate unusually high brand loyalty, and are often especially defensive of criticism and aggressively litigious about trademark issues. (Sound familiar?)

Another good example of a company with a "UPS" business model (in the home entertainment industry, for example) would be Bose. Bose operates in a different way from most other audio manufacturers. They eschew technical standards and certifications such as Dolby and THX as a matter of principle. They do not publish technical specs on their products, thereby thwarting comparisons against their competition. Instead, they assert that their products are superior entirely on the basis of self-authority, and likewise claim technological advancements in acoustics (such as "waveguide technology" for example). At the high end, Bose offers services whereby they will send a Bose technician to the customer's home to evaluate the acoustics of the room, and then recommend a system "appropriate" to the listening environment according to a patented technique.

 

[John Albert]

Maybe my post that you replied to wasn't clear enough, I'll make it clearer;
I wasn't talking about computer components.

BUT I WAS, and you originally forwarded your "UPS" argument as a rebuttal to my claim that the "Apple v PC" differentiation is a largely spurious one because Apples are made of all the same basic components as other computers.

I've been saying that Apple engages a basically dishonest marketing strategy of asserting that their machines are fundamentally different when they aren't.

You countered that argument with the claim that they are different because they employ a "UPS" market strategy. So as usual in this thread, it all comes back to marketing and how a company chooses to portray their product, instead of the actual physical qualities that do or don't differentiate their product from other companies' products.

Your extended analogy to the auto industry is totally inappropriate, because all cars are not designed around a common platform, like the personal computer industry is. The only way it would make sense is if all the auto manufacturers used the same technology manufactured to the same standard specs by all the same companies, with the only major difference being the choice of interiors with different styles, colors and fabrics.

 

[Stray Cat]

(Why do so many Apple apologists have such a strong tendency to invoke marketing as a defense of the company? I find it rather strange.)

I'm not sure that "so many" do.
I did simply because I'm in the advertising and marketing industry, but I really wasn't defending Apple, I was explaining why Apples are different from oranges.

BTW: Sorry, I'm not an "Apple apologist" either.

 

[Chris L]

oh, excellent riposte!

I think I've got the hang of this now:

Feel free to show that any other technology manufacturer has written a letter.

If you want to try evidence for 20 points, you can attempt to answer the question previously posed.

You are the one claiming they (Apple) are special. The burden of proof is yours as to a letter actually making a difference. See, the name of the thread is "What's so fantastic about Apple?". So far the only two answers we seem to be getting is "I luv my iStuff!" and "They don't suck any more than anyone else." If those are the only answers you have, that doesn't sound very convincing.